30 years on...

Markus,

Thank you for the correction, you are perfectly right, the verdier is heavy mass AND suspended.

Ciao T

 

3D, You look like you're in bad company to me.

Surely a clamp only works on a concave warp and should make a convex one worse.

 

What if it's on an Orbe, where it NEEDS the clamp (because without it, the record only sits on the thin raised label-sized inner platter)?

BTW - this thread is beginning to feel like *it* was began 30 years ago now

 

Not true on mine, there's a slightly indented central bit on the platter, but the record will sit flat on the entire platter without a clamp. Older Michells (Orbes and Gyros) seem to have a slightly different spindle arrangement to more recent models though, so this may not be the case on older models.

-- Ian

 

Hi,

If SME, Terry from loricraft and Mr. Moncrief are Bad Company, I guess we should found a Band of that name. At least it would be a company I would care to keep (many disagreements with PM nonwithstanding).

L8er T

 

I think you are having difficulty following the argument. I don't dispute that there is a small slowing effect, that is possible. What I do dispute is that it is significant enough to be audible. It certainly isn't audible to me.

I would have thought that stylus drag forces are, literally, negligible.

 

Blimey are you lot still arguing

 

If good company means 'only able to support an argument by quoting other believers'...

Let's have some facts, some measurements of turntables slowing, some assessments of how much distortion this causes, rather than marketing blurb from interested parties.

Peter Moncrieff is, as always, very funny, but only a paragraph at a time.

Paul

 

Hi,

Nah, I meant this on a personal level.

Agreed, he is so bent on "Replay Perfection" that he looses sight of the fact that no perfect recording, pressing etc exists.

Which was my assertation before, where I pointed out that in many cases modern high performance turntables provide better performace than any lathe ever could, including resilience to dynamic wow, rumble and so on.

Ciao T

 

The Linn LP12 is a modern high performance turntable, as the award review showed. It doesn't look the part, perhaps, but that, too, is pointed out in the review. There is no mention of dynamic wow, probably because it is a non-issue.

 

Hi,

Most likely due to elevated levels of ordinary wow & flutter, as illustrated in the measurements in the same mag which I referenced.

Ciao T

 

Hi,

Funny, I thought I had in a previous post made a reference to measured wow & flutter on the LP-12, which was materially worse than that of the LP-12, that bit of said post seems to have diappeared. Well, here again the link:

http://stereophile.com/turntables/1103linn/index4.html

This shows the Linn LP-12 with rumble, wow & flutter elements in the -60db region (and as all components are dded to the usual root of sumsquare higher RMS values), around 0.1% short term speed stability WITHOUT varying levels.

It also shows a much lower level for a cheap direct drive turntable which I will argue is sonically inferior to the LP-12, illustrating that rumble, wow & flutter is not the whole picture. But better than 0.1% does bring improvements IMHO.

Anyway that just for the record.

L8er T

 

I don't see how you get to 'around 0.1% short term speed stability' from that data. I would have thought that the narrower 'spike' of the LP12 compared to the DD implies better short term speed stability?

To skip back a bit, to get an idea how much drag is required for 1% slow running download the strobe disc from http://www.extremephono.com/free_turntable_strobe_disk.htm print it, place it on platter, shine a light on it and watch the dots. Assuming your turntable is running at about the right speed they will appear stationary. With 50Hz mains there are 100 flashes per second. So 1% slow means the dots will appear to rotate against the turntable revolution so that one virtual dot is replaced by another every second. Slow the platter with a finger or grease free rubbing device to judge how much load is required.

Paul

 

i'm glad

all you guys are arguing about the figures and how physics work as i must have the best deck a la' bbv as mine has a bearing that is damped = less noise resonance.
medium mass made of acrylic = matches vinyls resonance and has high enough inertia to overcome slowing.
no subchassis = no relative movement on a rotational axis.
ultra low mass chassis = no mass in the subchassis to feed back into the much lower mass of arm and cart combo so less likely to excite or deflect energy.
my bearing has built in oil damped resistance than is higher than the possible stylus drag so cannot be made to stylus drag as the motor can rotate the bearing.
detached high mass d.c motor = less noise.
33 and 45 not like a linn basik.
looks pukka like a see through thing.
sounds incredible to everyone that has heard it.
uses a semi rigid belt to stop the elastic belt factor and sounds better than every deck i have previously owned by quite a margin.
is also very rare and customised so it must be the best record player in the world.
the best thing is i bought this for less than £600 including a michell tecno arm.
beat that losers.
i am not bragging just being fascious/obnoxious.
it does take 10 minutes to stabilise though as it wows like a bastard for the warm up.
am i bovvered look at my face am i bovvered.

 

.

 

I'm glad you're enjoying your souped up Rega Planar 2, Darryl

 

Modern???

The three-point suspended subchassis turntable on which the LP12 is based is 45-years old!!! I think the AR was first marketed in 1961.

I've owned several LP12s, and they are excellent decks, class leading 30-years ago, but today, they are only average and surpassed by many more modern turntables.

 

What actually is the most recent development in turntable technology out of interest?

 

Hi,

I am certain you are right, but Stereophile seem to think that the LP12 is still competitive. Could you email them, and put them straight?

 

Stereophile aren't infallible you know...