30 years on...

Sure thing Mr Newton

Dont assume to know my understanding of the subject.

FWIW, it was not myself the said the LP12 has a hollow plinth.

 

God this thread is so pointless . TT design is a relatively simple engineering problem that was solved a long, long time ago (long before the LP12 was designed). People here seem to be suggesting that amazing new performance improving ideas have appeared since then to make any old TT almost obsolete - bollox (Garrard anyone?). All we've had is variations on a theme.

Since making a good TT is essentially about precision engineering what differentiates a good one from a bad one is not so much the design concept as how precisely it's been engineered and how well it's been put together, both areas in which the LP12 is not lacking.

The amount of voodoo pseudo-science being talked here to justify why the LP12 is "bad" is quite incredible.

Again, I'm still not sure what the anti-LP12 brigade's problem is. Perhaps trying to justify the cost of the shiny bells and whistles, pointless 3-ton marble platters and other rubbish dressed up as "engineering" of their own TTs?

Michael.

 

Like i said, i dont have an opinion on the LP12, merely basic engineering concepts.
I dont think it was 'bollox'

 

Yep.

Also what Michael said.

The LP12's 'problem' is that it looks a bit '70s, in comparison with modern audio jewellery, but the bits that matter are good, and always have been.

 

All I know is what you show.

Paul

 

I used the term "hollow plinth" as one does in the construction industry when referring to open parking below the first floor

If this box doesn't have any effect, then why does the sound change when it's lid is removed?

 

Exactly, and touche.

 

Pre-blinking-cisely!

And if the "box" isn't part of the record playing system but the metal top plate is, surely to god that resonates just as badly or more, even if the thing is "bent" to damp it?

An acoustic guitar makes a lot of noise when a string is plucked. An electric one (unamplified!) doesn't, but that doesn't mean that the body doesn't resonate. Try sticking your chin on an electric guitar/bass body and yank a string - it vibrates like a sod even if you can't hear it so well without playing it "through" your bones...

Therefore, since a wooden plinth (solid or otherwise) can still resonate, and the music being played while you're listening to a record is often far louder than a plucked acoustic guitar string, surely plinth resonance can potentially be audible?

 

The lid is not the plinth.

FWIW, possibly the most significant single 'Ninja' modification is to the top plate.

 

Instead of theorising endlessly, and rather badly, about the LP12, can I suggest a good old-fashioned audition of this good old-fashioned TT?

 

The lid of the box is situated underneath the LP12!

 

What are you talking about? The baseboard?

Here's a nice photo, anyway:

 

Hi,

Yes, the ones that where in essence "pure" and not encumbered without extreme commercial compromises where cutting lathes, simply because they had be as good as the best THEORETICAL turntables while cutting a laquer (later a copper master).

As somewhat compromised from the ideal solution to the engineering problem followed the studio turntables (Garrard 301/401, Thorens 124, 125 and later derivates of the reference and EMT's) used for quality control and replay where the greatest requirements of fidelity existed.

Beyond that solutions become more compromised by commercial concerns as they became consumer items. With the emergence of "High End" HiFi (which really means Consumer Equipment with less of a concern about cost) many turntables where build (and still are) that aim to reduce the gap between the ideal and the practical to a larger degree than generic consumer equipment.

I am not interested in covering any specific item, however I contend that ANYONE who would argue that the ideal turntable is NOT a cutting lathe in reverse (but rather the polar opposite) would find his point having poor footing.

Or in other words, any such contention may be safely filed under "Marketing hyperbole".

So assuming an equal care of implementation one may easily argue that the device which more closely approaches the ideal solution is most likely to be the better.

But as Mr. 666 points out, the best test is to simply a record. When that is the absurd superiority of high mass designs over other solutions becomes rather quickly obvious. After comparing the "LP-12 Beater" Oracle Delphi to a true "Masselaufwerk" well set up the Oracle was "History" (Mai Tai), as was BTW the Garrard I was working on/with at the time. I suggest to others to make the same test.

Ciao T

 

That's a nice photo of someone else's Ninja. The polished platter reduces drag considerably.

 

How does that show that reducing the volume of air in the box would be a good thing?

IYO does the sound get better or worse when the baseboard is removed? How about when the new style baseboard is used?

Paul

 

Doesn't do much for the dreaded stylus drag, tho'.

Didn't say it was mine: I don't have a digital camera.

 

What does 'resonate' mean and how do you tell when it is bad?

Paul

 

Is your platter polished?

 

I preferred the sound with baseboard removed. I've not tried the new style baseboard.