30 years on...

Hi,

As a rule, I do not believe. I have no use for religion or other irational believsystems. I have made a specific job of mine to know.

As a result I KNOW the LP-12 and remarked that is an acceptable performance turntable, however not one that is particulary faithfull to the recording, for a number of reasons.

Now I do not insist that everyone should listen to the "holey recording", on the contrary, I am all for giving people the option tho get music played on their system to sound the way they want/like, including the use of equalisation and all sorts of things.

HOWEVER, I do consider that such alterations to the recording are best done conciously, deliberatly and that they should have a "bypass" switch.

Nope, you may notice that I have no particular problem with people who disagree, my interest is the truth.

They are. How curious.

I give a reasoned and weighted critque of a lot of stuff, based on a wide experience. I would argue that this is not the same as eulogising a particular product far beyond reason based on the absence of having had a sufficiently wide range of comparisons.

I guess my truck here is the same as with religions. To me all religions are right, good and perfectly fine, untill they start insisting that all the others are wrong and the only salvation is theirs.

L8er T

 

But everything you've presented regarding 'design features' of the LP12 is unreasoned and/or plain wrong. I don't care what you think of its sound. If you're going to bash, bash with some substantiation.

Paul

 

Yup, that Ransom kid must be blind or illiterate. Either way he cant grasp what people are saying.

 

Strange. People who disagree with you, disagree with the truth and are therefore, by definition wrong.

How ironic that you should them comment further as highlighted above.

 

Hi,

Nope, I merely seek the truth as the main objective. You will find that if I have my facts wrong and this is pointed out I will actually thank you.

But if people apply heavy duty doublespeak, doublethink, blackwhite and quaktalk (to the terminology provided by Orwell for charaterisation of such behaviour) I feel strangly compelled to provide with the same correction I appreciate should I talk or write rubbish.

Sadly the arguments fielded by some have far gone counterfacturals right into the realm normally known as "LaLaLand", such as the outright denial that the LP-12 uses a pressed steel subchassis, or that said subchassis is suspended by springs from the toplate or that it is contained in a boxlike plinth and equally, that said cosntruction must, if the laws of physics are still valid lead to certain behavious under certain circumstances, that any further arguments are about as usefull as a reasoned discussion on points of islamic theology and the al'quran with a suicide bomber about to pull the cord.

L8er T

 

Hi,

Let me get thbis right...

You assert here about the LP-12:

1) The platter is NOT largely hollowed out, forming a bell like structure (and ringing like one)

2) The subchassis is NOT flanged pressed steel.

3) The subchassis is NOT suspended by springs from the top-plate.

4) The top-plate does is NOT mounted in a plinth that is hollow and forms on the outside and inside respectively rectangular prisms.

If that what you assert?

Or are you asserting that my observations as to what kind of behaviou said parts and design would be forced to display, according to the laws of physics as currently gen erally understood, if placed in a soundfield from a speaker?

Well, in either case you will find that your claims are remarkably far from reality.

L8er T

PS, I know strictly speaking the subchassis is supended from bolts embedded in the top-plate and that the springs are in compressiomn, not expansion mode (they are in expansion mode on Michell and Orackle decks though and for perfectly good reasons), but I wanted to keep things simple.

 

I think Paul was speaking to Penance,not that I'm taking much notice though

carry on

cheers

Dave

 

Then Mr Denial should, yet again, read my posts and realise i did not mention LP12 spedifics.

 

It's very easy to show that it doesn't ring like a bell.

Where did I suggest that?

Where did I suggest that?

Well I would say frame rather than hollow. But otherwise I've absolutely no idea what this means.

Something like that, except that you forgot to append 'are completely unsupportable'.

And you forgot to explain your view of felt.

Paul

 

Hi,

Remove the LP and Mat. Gently strike the platter using a biro etc, listen to the nice tone generated.

In this sentence from further down, to which I responded.

You claimed that everything I had written about the LP-12 was wrong. Do you wish to retract and clarify your statement? Be my guest.

L8er T

 

Replace mat then LP, play LP.

You forgot to remove the outer platter before striking. Then it rings 'like a bell'.

Read what you quoted. You have either not reasoned or are wrong.

Paul

 

The criticisms of the LP12 on this thread are IMHO pretty infantile, they show little understanding of either the turntables construction or how different materials interface with others. Sure, the two piece platter rings as individual parts, but not when they are assembled / the subchassis rings like a gong when completely disassembled, but not when the arm board, bearing and rubber suspension grommets are all correctly installed. Anyone who has any understanding of this turntable knows this - it is designed with joined up thinking, and you need just that to criticise it.

The other fact that sails effortlessly over heads is that 'ringing' is a design decision, as an example the ceramic platter of a Rega P9 rings like a bell even when in place and with the mat installed. It does so purely because Roy Gandy wanted it to - he reckons a loud amplitude resonance at a very narrow frequency is easier to deal with than a broader damped resonance (yes, everything resonates!). So does that make it a worse deck than an Orbe? I know which I'd choose, and yes, I have had them all at home.

Tony.

 

Can't people leave the poor little ol' LP12 alone ?

The LP12 is a great deck and all this about resonating is getting a bit daft. As pointed out by Tony some decks are are made to resonate at certain frequencies. This is one of the reasons why the Mana racks have been so successful when paired with the LP12 - it resonates a lot.

As someone who has just swapped from an LP12 to an Orbe I personally find the Orbe a better deck. It does a lot of the great things the LP12 did and then adds a little extra which makes it preferable to my listening habits. Once you have listened to classical music on an Orbe it does leave the LP12 in its wake - certainly in my setup anyway.

The LP12 is a great deck and has brought pleasurable vinyl replay to more people than pretty much any other deck (with the exception of the cheaper Rega decks maybe).

May be it's time we had a ban on the slagging off of LP12s, Mana and ATC.

 

I'd have an LP12 over an Orbe any day...

 

A month ago I would have said the same.

Having previously owned Michell decks I've always found them too analytical not as musical. However, the new Orbe seems to have got everything right - musically it is spot on the money and has very similar strengths to the LP12 and then still has that extra analytical edge which allows for the hifi bits as well.

Anton Bruckner, Jimmy D. Laine and Hank Mobley helped me make the choice

 

Does she have a sixth of a normal person's eyesight and unsteady fingers due to RSI from 22 years of typing???

I can deal with an arm lift, and a platter that stays in one place when you're cueing with said arm/armlift, but a suspended deck is a pain in the arse. However, I'd take a Michell's pain in the arse over the Linn's any day, because the resulting sound is worth it.

Tones - I've already stated I've heard a couple of LP12s that I'd consider living with, but not at the price they'd cost versus an alternative. That doesn't mean I am going out of my way to dislike a product, just that there's better gear available at the same or lower price FOR ME - whether that's the same for anyone else is irrelevant.

BTW - I'd definitely have a Michell over a Linn - even the older "inferior" Orbe (I'll be putting Henryt's "inferior" Orbe to the test again tonight, and compared to any of the LP12s I've had experience of, his leaves them for dead. Sorry and all that.

I'd also take a P9 over a Linn, but that's by the by. Or an Oracle Delphi (lovely decks)

 

Another view of the LP-12

Folks,

While looking at other stuff over at TNT-Audio I came across a brief (re)view of the LP-12 which I think is rather more balanced than what has been presented here.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/linn_lp12_e.html

I'll leave people their own conclusions.

As for various construction details, I AM AWARE that various parts of the LP-12 are desigend to ring and I am AWARE that is the main reason that it sounds the way it does.

And as it so happens, I feel the way the LP-12 presents a recording is rather more edited than I find enjoyable in most cases, on that one I am with Messers Quaschik, Salvatore and others.

This does not mean that if anyone happens to enjoy what the LP12 does they are wrong, as long as consenting adults are involved anything that gives pleasure and enjoyment is allowed and in fact actively encouraged, as long as it remains behind closed doors and tolerance is excercised towards differing views and experiences.

I'll really leave it at that, this thread is way too boring.

L8er T

 

Ninja mod

Interesting comparison. Hartmut mentions that he compared an LP12 with a stronger steel plate and with the motor position moved to the 7 o'clock position giving a bit more dynamics and solidness to the music, but the difference isn't big enough to lose hair about... Is this the famous Ninja mod?

 

Where?

 

Dom, I can respect that point of view - but that's rarely what you say. Most of your posts on the LP12 slag it off. There's never a "good, but too expensive". Instead we have to endure all this tosh about the thing's perceived deficiencies, and NOT ONE WORD about it being any good. You are naturally entitled to hate the thing, and I don't mind at all (I like mine and all your criticism won't make it behave the way you say it should), but your credibility rating on the LP12 with me is zero.