30 years on...

Another of your pastimes is trolling internet fora with theoretical nonsense. I don't believe that anyone can genuinely hear dynamic wow on any competently-designed turntable.

It's akin to a gnat hitting the windscreen of a truck.

 

Hi,

Maybe, maybe not. Few if any will dispute that a higher mass flywheel will have better speed stability than a lower mass one, few if any will dispute that a higher mass platform will be less sensitive to external vibrations.

The fact that the turntable manufacturers from whom Linn copied the design choose to use a fairly light platter was related strictly to economical concerns and not to any acceptance on their part that such a platter was either sufficient under all conditions or desirable for sonic reasons (witness the Thorens Reference which had an extremely heavy mass platter).

Well, you may believe anything you like, however if you took the measurements suggested you would find notable changes measurable. How audible such things are depends on many factors. A strong believe that they do not exist may make them actually inaudible to the believer, even though they are objectively and subjectively there to other people (2).

(2 - I one blind tested this on a "anti cable" believer, when he believed he listened to test where cables where compared he was unable to identify reliably the polarity reversal of one channel, while the control group identified this with absolute reliability)

Or a modicum of the least common of all senses.

L8er T

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again....Brian Eno's last cd...it's a corker -

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...2778/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_11_1/202-9494131-9660631

 

Please supply a source for that assertion.

It's not up to me to provide the data*, it's up to you, since you are the one with the theory that the LP12 exhibits audible dynamic wow. I've never seen any review of the LP12 which even mentions dynamic wow due to stylus drag.

* I don't have the equipment, time, or inclination, because I think the problem is literally negligible. A truck which hits a gnat will slow down, but not so much as anyone in the truck would notice.

 

Hi,

In cases where the motor is neither syncronous nor uses a looped or otherwise speed controlled motor, in the region of 0.5 - 1% between arm off and on using a non-modulated groove, more on heavily modulated grooves. Where the motor itself cannot be lowed down the stresses need to be taken up by the drive belt or other medium. If that drive medium is elastic it will absobe the stress temporarily and releases it afterwards when the load is reduced (less modulation).

HOWEVER, as I pointed out before, the same effect operates on the cutting lathe to a much higher degree (though admittedly it is designed to deal with that as well) in terms of forces.

So, back to square one, if wow & flutter, rumble and dynamic speed variations are reliably below that caused by modern cutting lathes the turntable is "good enough" that it's own speed stability should cause only modest audible differences. The borderline is around 0.01% wow & flutter and -70db rumble, as few lathes ever achieved better and any that did where/are highly customised devices not in use by large mastering houses and large record companies.

L8er T

 

Hi,

Just compare Ariston RD-11, Thorens TD-160 and Linn LP-12 and check the interchangabilities of parts.

L8er T

 

Arm on / arm off is irrelevant.

The difference which you need to demonstrate is the difference in drag between the most heavily-modulated passages, and the least heavily-modulated (silence).

Can you give a % figure for the LP12?

 

You still haven't backed that up.

 

I think the answer must be "no", as you've failed to provide any figures at all, so far.

If you were to design a braking system for a wheel, would you use a tiny diamond stylus, sliding in a vinyl groove? I don't think I would.

 

I'm sorry, although I might believe in heavy platters, I certainly don't believe in them to negate the braking force of a stylus!

 

I believe that very heavy platters exist. I often wonder why.

 

Hi,

Correct, they CANNOT negate it. What they can do is to change amplitude and the timeconstants involved.

Ciao T

 

:>) - I also believe in the Ninja.

 

Enough theory - no-one disputes it, BTW. How about some facts?

What are the speed differences for a TT with (say) a 4kg platter, rotating at 33.3, between silent passages and loud ones?

 

The mass of the platter is irrelevant. All that matters is its inertia about the spindle.

Is Thorsten suggesting that Linn platter, bearing and motor parts are interchangeable with a Thorens TD160?

I don't have a test record. If someone lends me one I will produce wav files of different tones using an LP12.

Paul

 

No, but I can vaguely remember Roksan's theory on the matter: It has nothing to do with the platter mass and everything to do with the suspension. Roksan contend that the LP12 arm board is never static in relation to the platter, that varying levels of drag causes a minute rotational movement due to the lateral movement available in the subchassis springs. Tom Fletcher from NA also articulates a similar argument, likening vinyl replay as needing a remarkable precision similar to a sniper shooting a target 1000 yards away, as he says not something you would want to do standing on springs! Tom does not like bouncy things.

These are not my arguments - I'm no LP12 hater, I think they are great decks, but food for thought nonetheless.

Tony.

 

Alex S........ you must have bunked of that period of double physics

Its call inertia.....been known for a couple of hundred years now



Inertia = the resistance an object has to a change in its state of motion. Newton's conception

 

Hi,

It is now in the region of 10 Years ago, but I noticed that several key parts, BUT NOT bearing/platter hub where at least mechanically interchangable between Thorens & Linn (and probably Ariston). Many critical measurements for placements of the suspension are also within normal tolerances. The items that are different differ only in exact measurements, not in actual structure or general design. The earlier AR is considerably in details, though identical in principles.

As the Thorens Turntables where the earliest of the Thorens/Ariston & Linn trio one may conclude who plagiarised whom. Thorens being primarily an export oriented operation and "value midmarket" oriented made their table fairly light (shipping cost) and economical to manufacture while giving a satisfactory degree of performance.

If one looks at later high performance suspended designs (Michell, Oracle to name the key milestones) and non-suspended (nottingham analog, thorens reference, transrotor, platine verdier to name the key milestones) one finds very much heavier platters. Getting a greater inertia is ONE of the reasons for doing so.

Ciao T

 

Okay, make that 'audible braking force'. Physics wasn't really my thing, still isn't, even though I have to teach a few rudimentaries.

 

Not in the case of the Michell Orbe: the platter is considerably lighter than the LP12's.

TonyL.

Lots of rival manufacturers may have their theories on why the LP12 can't work. Fact is, it works well enough to win prestigious awards.

Paul R.

Inertia is a function of mass and velocity.