A few inches can make all the difference...

Speaker positioning is what I'm talking about

My living/listening room is a rather odd shape. It's roughly 15ft wide and 45ft long but as it's an old building with a substantially wooden structure none of corners are exact right angles. Allthough it might appear straight in this picture:



..taken about halfway down the room, the wall behind my speakers is at a roughly 10deg angle from the perpendicular, ie, from my listening position (roughly where the red armchair is) the left side of the wall is further from me than the right side.

Now, I had my speakers setup so they were firing straight down the room, which meant that the left speaker was about 70cm from the rear wall and the right one about 60cm. I was having real issues with getting any impact and scale from my system, no matter how loud I listened. It was something I was often aware of in other systems and I really didn't understand why I was missing out. I'd played about with moving the speakers back and forth, and all kinds of toe-in options but nothing really improved. Well, thanks to Tony, who I had a quick chat to about it yesterday, the problem is solved and I'm kicking myself for not realising what it was.

He suggested having both speakers the same distance from the rear wall, even if that meant the left speaker would be 10cm further away from the listening position. Instantly there was a huge improvement. Soundstage depth was hugely improved and I was, for the first time, getting a real sense of scale and impact from my system. Bass extension improved too. Balance was a little out because of the assymetric positioning but I've now solved that. I left the left speaker firing straight down the room and toed in the right speaker a little. In that configuration I effectively have the system firing down the room at a slight angle, with the speakers slightly toed in. It means the sweet spot is now somewhat to the left of where it was but that's no problem. The result is a huge improvement. I guess before, particularly in the bass, the out of phase rear wall reflections were just messing everything up.

Cheers Tony - best improvement I've had for a while...and cost me nothing at all!

Michael.

 

TFFT :yikes: I was wondering what you were going to post about .

 

inches in the behind or in the toe('ing)?

Dunkboy has commented on the radical difference he has found from experienting on speaker placement, with elevation being critical. Its interesting whether symmetry (wrt the back wall) is the main thing or the toe'ing in.

 

M,

You ever tried running the speakers along the long wall toed in about 45 degrees with you sitting in the middle of the opposite wall?

9/10 times I personally prefer it that way.

Also, tried any massive great big thick rugs or carpets?

 

in my room moving Cremonas even half inch makes a big difference.

 

Do you mean firing across the room Chris?

Mike I have speakers on the long wall, my room is smaller but similar shape to yours, I listen accross the room Short wall speakers are about 8-9 feet apart with me at a similar distance away. I also have a wall directly behind my seat, this for me always has given the greatest presentation, tried it long ways and just couldn't get it.

 

I have my speakers toed-in, not quite 45 degrees though. However, I don't think this works for most speakers, I think one just has to experiment, provided the speakers are not too heavy

 

Mine are barely turned in at all, but they have a flare built into tweeter housing.

 

Speaker postion is the dominant factor in the the sound of my system.

Absolutely as far apart as possible is the best solution, close together always sounds pinched and distant to me. Across the room, as close to the sidewalls as possible and me in the middle of the room. This seems to give the most consistent sound throughout the room for some reson. Some quite fine adjustement is needed to get a stable soundstage, though, of both the speakers and the placement of the listening chair.

It's worth getting the centre of the driver to point exactly at the appropriate lughole. This means toeing in the speakers just enough so that the innermost side of the cabinet isn't visible from the listening position. I also level the speakers by applying the same principle to the top of the cabinet, rather than use a spirit level.

 

I haven't tried the speakers firing across the room rather than down the length of it simply because that's just not a viable option. It would mean having to totally re-arrange the living room and that just isn't on (and that's not just my wife's view ).

I don't have a wall right behind me obviously and always wondered whether that would improve things or not. I would have thought that in theory it's better not to have one as you have less reflections to deal with. Maybe not.

To be honest, I've tried varying levels of toe-in and it only makes a difference to the soundstage width and not a lot else. I've always been in favour of zero toe-in and I've certainly never had a problem with having a "hole" in the middle of the soundstage. The only reason I opted for a bit of toe-in with the new setup is to keep the position of the speakers looking reasonably normal now that they're firing at a slight angle down the room.

Michael.

 

Mike - I was mainly suggesting the toe in for when/if you try it firing across as above. It becomes a bit more necessary then IMHO, due to the extra width.

Go on! give it a go!!

 

Pah! call yourself an audiophile, ya bloody modern man charlatan

 

I remember when I have had various visitors, including Julian that my stereo faced the couch at very close quarters. Although Terribly polite Julian experienced very aggressive music thanks to the proximity.

Indeed rooms seem to be the most important factor, and since I moved the room the sound has come alive without killing people:



In the back of HIFI mags they used to show a triangle where you listened at a slight larger distance than the distance between speakers.

In my experience you get more from it all if you are about 1.5 times the distance away at least.

 

The distance I am from my speakers isn't as far as it looks in the photo as the wide angle lens is exaggering it. The two red chairs are no longer there and there's another sofa in their place which is where I sit, which is perhaps about 1.5 times the distance between the speakers away.

I was listening to more music today and am still blown away by the improvement :banana:

Michael.

 

gary,
is that the same room?
i would say that when i heard it, your kit, worked excellently with a lot of music once i'd gotten used to the diffeences in sound from my own kit (at that time) also i think your lp12's needle was on the way out when i heard that so it perhaps wasn't a good idea to make too much of it.
once i've got my speakers finished you'll have to come over for a listen.
cheers


julian

 

Nice looking room there gary, Whats the superb picture?

 

Julian, the wall where the speakers were now has the sofa on and the speakers are right at the other end so in effect doubling the distance between listener and speaker.

I would love to hear your new speakers but you only have 30 days to complete because then we move!

Analougekid, the whole lot behind the speakers are a simple frame with material over and layered behind with underlay, this deals with a lot of bass boom effectively.

The cool bit of material is called bastique (I think) and is an Indian way of applying colour to material by blocking areas with wax, then colouring, then removing the wax then doing it again etc etc, its very effective.

 

Very effective and very nice Gary, I think the technique is Batique, without the S, where did you get it?

 

I think we got it from an ideal homes exhibition some years ago, the bloke had gone round India finding artists and buys it off them, then sells it on, (apparently)

I think we paid 30 quid for it, but they had some stunning ones there at significantly more money

 

Cheers gary, we need something that size and shape so you've given me something to look for.