A Naim Speaker Question.

Then you are basing your view on very limited experience.

They do not (IMO) suit expensive Naim electronics.
They can work well with lower cost olive kit, but work better still when working with some non Naim electronics.

As it happens, I like a lot of what Naim do, but I think when you put too much of it together, then it all gets too much. Some of what they do is not true to faithful music reproduction and that is fine if the result is what you like. However if you have too many pieces all doing that, IMO it doesn't work well.

I have heard some very expensive Naim systems (I won't say top of range as that can be subjective as you can still add more if going active or using muliple power supplies), but the most recent was well over £50k of electronics driving some B&Ws and I honestly was wondering how long I had to stay so it didn't look rude me leaving. My massively more modest system at home would knock the socks off it - not just my opinion there either.

 

Jon,

I've been following and posting on hi-fi forums for at least a decade -- yes, I'm a nerd -- and I can't think of anyone besides you who's running SBLs in a non-Naim system, let alone by a Sony AV amp.

That you sold your Naim electronics but kept the second most Naimiest of Naim components (IBLs being the Naimiest) all these years has me baffled. As Mark pointed out, I, too, just can't see the SBLs playing to the Sony's strengths. Does not compute. Error! Error! If I were Nomad I'd be in a million pieces.

As you've often said, you're after simple, non-legacy (whatever that is) hi-fi that integrates with a computer, so the affordable option would seem to be a pair of ADM 9.1s. If you need more bass get the spud.

Joe

 

Come off it! If only 25% of a group of intelligent, motivated hi-fi enthusiasts are capable of setting up a pair of these speakers for optimum results, then there is something amiss with the design of the speakers. And in any case, Naim equipment is supposed to be set-up by the dealer, so something else doesn't compute here.

This brings to mind "Duerden's Law", which states that no matter how many pairs of great-sounding SBLs actually exist, it's never the ones which you are currently listening to.

As to whether SBLs are unsuitable for Naim systems (!!), I think I'll leave that particular insight to other readers...

 

Hi Joe

Welcome to all the multi-forum PFM members...lol

I didn't plan to put Sony with SBL's, it just kinda happened; as you would know the Sony was bought for add on A/V purposes to the Naim system in total, but after some time and out of curiosity, having a damn good listen to it, I found it out did the Naim electronics in overall musical results. And so over time the Naim kit was sold off, as it almost always ended up powered up but languishing, as I simply preferred the music making abilities of the Sony kit, and that plus it's flexibility and VFM just sealed the fate of the Naim kit, leaving only the SBL's and some Mana to remain. (Confesses to owning Mana... ssssshhh.)

In terms of PRaT, the SBL's play to the Sonys strengths, very much so, - with the afore mentioned caveat of hard driving rock music perhaps - but not in terms of absolute detail/resolution, timbral and tonal balance, spatial perspectives, mix and match abilities for music/movies etc. And hence a desire to change.

I take your point about other users either not, or seldom using SBL's outside of a Naim system. That it would never be a 'Sony' says a hell of a lot more about brand prejudices than it does about sound IME. A friend who works at the local Naim dealership heard it and was amazed - he also felt that if it had say a Krell badge, it would have fetched circa A$15k, not the A$6k it retailed at, due to the 'badge', and based on build quality let alone the outstanding sound quality. If I told you it was a Tact Millenium/Lyngdorf, and you heard it, I've no doubt you'd believe me, without seeing the badge on the front.

But this is not about brand perceptions, it is about getting an optimum amp/speaker match. Part of the reason I've held on to the SBL's for so long, is monetary. It's a fact of life that when you buy something new and expensive, its always marketed as the best, the most exclusive etc, as was the SBL when I bought and paid A$7,300.00 new for them. Of course when the new all singing all dancing SL2 came along with slightly modified drivers/crossover and a new cabinet boasting slightly improved sound for a new price of A$15,000.00 the writing was on the wall for the SBL.

Now, having once been described as one of the best loudspeakers in the world by Martin Colloms in his review of them, they are now just seemingly so much second hand, outdated junk in the eyes of many when it comes to selling time.

We are just starting to see the first signs of possible economic recovery, and I hope to get a good price for them should I decide to sell, if I find a speaker that I like that gives me most of the benefits and addresses the shortcomings of the SBL at a sensible price.

Having said that, there is no way I am going to part with the SBLs for a pittance. I would rather keep them and use them for rear channel speakers if it came to that. So uncertainty about what to replace them with, how much it will cost, and resale of the SBLs for a good price is responsible for the protracted time in resolving the last piece of system matching.

In my opinion, I regard 'legacy' hifi as kit that is designed to play music exclusively, and doesn't take into account the variety of modern 21st century media. In that context, my kit is not legacy, but it is multi-boxed, racked, with passive speakers etc. Ideally speaking I'd like to go with some sort of active floor standing speakers, utilising some of my present sources for SACD etc, as well as a computer for source. But to sell the sources and amp that I have, all relatively new, at undoubted loss, and to refinance new active kit and source is a prohibitive financial excercise.

However, when things get old, and out of date, then that will be the time I will try to move into something that will lessen the box count, wiring, racks etc, whilst providing as good or better sound quality and flexibility. But it is difficult, as going active means having to ditch a superb amp that I already own, and I wont be doing that until it is past its use by date, and I can afford something full bandwidth in an active floor standing speaker. And even then, multi-box systems do have some advantages in that you can add on as you go, rather than having to buy everything at once, which again adds to the financial hurdle of the integrated active route.

So I know where I ideally want to be, but the route appears to have a few hills and valleys in it nonetheless. As an last comment and example, whilst I do like B&W 804's and 803D which I have heard, they neatly straddle price wise, some B&O Beolab 9's, which are an active three way, with inbuilt bass equalisation settings for position in room, plus the proprietary acoustic lens technology; these would easily be a competitor for the likes of 804/803's - but again it means selling off my present amp etc, well before it's use by date which for the monetary reasons I've mentioned, I'm loathe to do at this time. And yeah, hell, despite the boxes etc, I'm way, way happy with it. Easily the best amp I've ever owned, and one of the very best I've ever heard, period.

Now, all I need are the right speakers...*sigh*

Cheers

Jon...

 

Jon,

If your heart is set on a change my recommendation is to find some decent used "legacy" speakers because they're generally much cheaper than new speakers and they're typically far better, as their designers built them for the purpose at hand -- vibrating air molecules -- not to look pretty or unobtrusive in a living room.

However, as you've waxed lyrical about the active Beolabs and obviously like them a lot that's what you should buy, as anything else will be a costly detour. If you found what you like why keep searching?

If you can't afford to switch now because you've gone back to school slug it out with the SBLs...or go the AVI route.

Joe

 

Hi Joe - you speak a lot of common sense and thank you. The AVI route is problematical, as sales and service here are seemingly very limited... that still leaves me with B&W CM9's as a possible choice, which from a cursory listen I like a lot; certainly will likely match the Sybils in some, if not all areas - perhaps a sideways, but overall more suitable move - and are not such a financial impost as to make buying or resale later on a ruinous experience.

Best regards and thanks for your input

Jon..

 

The CM9's aren't active though are they?

 

SBLs work nicely with a meaty valve amp - a solid KT88 fueled amp should work well. I stuck a pair of early SBLs on the end of a Croft SMA/Series V and it sounded great.

Doesn't help here though - but Jon, I've replied to your PM over on PFM.

 

Despite the undeniable truth with Paul's law in general (I like that;-), the SBLs hair-shirty-ness demands reading the instructions and following them to the letter. As we both know, that's not going to happen since humans are involved. Dealers are as bad as anyone else...more so perhaps since for them it's part of "work" as opposed to "recreation" for the rest of us. Somehow a few of us still manage to get the noise out of them the designer intended. Again, the key is reading the instructions.

regards,

dave

 

ooch....I'm with rob on this one ...I've heard sbl sound very good to dire ....

Which suggests to me that they are very senstive to several aspects ...be it the amps [as rob hints at] or placment or both

one factor missed is speaker cable ......are you still using nac5 or similar with the es gear ?

you bought the sbl because you liked what the did ...nothing has changed except the partnering gear ....if they sounded better with the upgraded gear then as likely as not better amp and source will get more from them .....

that is unless your wanting to change the speakers for changes sake ?

there are a great many speakers that might fit the bill ...many mentioned already ..but your going to have to dig very deep to better the sbl ..and I'm not a fan !

 

No, just 'ordinary' passives...lol. I'd like active, but like high end passives, it's probably going to be out of my $$ reach at this point in time.

The CM9's look to be very good value though; cabinets made in Denmark, drivers in UK, assembled in China. At least that's what the salesperson said. Certainly the made in China part is correct, in B&W's own facility.

Cabinets are beautifully made and finished, with a really solid structure - passes the knuckle rap test with flying colours.

They allegedly use the same aluminium tweeter as the 800 series (hmm) mounted in an inverted cone tube/transmission line, inside it's own compartment in the main cabinet. Midrange is their proprietary FST, and the twin bass units are a paper/kevlar mix. First order crossovers using H/Q Mundorf caps. It's certainly very impressive value on materials for the money being asked. I'm going to have another listen with my own material when I get over this damnable cold and can hear again properly...:MILD:

Best

Jon...

 

Thanks for that Rob..

Cheers

Jon...

 

I can't remember whether it was face to face, or posted on a forum, but either way it was very funny, and typical Paul. On the Naim speaker front, he did enthuse about the Naim IBL, and of course the beloved Royd Minstrel, discussion about which practically sent him into orbit.

 

Never heard the IBL or Royds. Gut feeling tells me I'd like them both though. I've been over loud, tinkly and deep since I quit playing in bands thirty years ago.

 

I think you would as well. Paul had a very good ear. He liked ATCs & Quads, too. "Fast!"

;-)

Regards,

 

"Fast" is good. I'm a big fan of electrostatics. I suspect ATC as well too from your description over the years

 

To be vaguely serious, for once, my experience of Naim is that they really are a "source first" company.

Aro - excellent
CD players - very good
Preamps - good
Power amps - ho hum
Speakers - somewhat questionable

 

It appears the majority of those that like Naim rate all but the speakers. I've always had good results with their speakers but then I've always had good results with most any speaker. Good ones (made by anybody) do most everything important well enough for me. I find far more to criticize earlier in the chain.

 

I wouldn't entirely disagree (although I have not liked all their CD players so much and have returned to my 135's a number of times).

Slightly off topic; I recently recommended what is essentially your system to someone who was looking to buy from scratch. It fitted their claimed budget but I suspect they will end up with some bizarre mish-mash instead.

Edit: Unfortunately, my prediction looks likely to happen..........

 

That's sort-of flattering, thanks. I think it's a pretty good set-up, but the ATCs are often criticised online for being "unmusical", as are the SME TT and arm.