A Naim Speaker Question.

Well, I wouldn't be too flattered - it's not for me (I did come close to buying a pair of ATC's once though, 50's) and your ownership of the equipment had nothing to do with my recommendation. However, I do think it is well balanced and pretty good value for money (not cheap but still good value in the greater scheme of things).

I understand what people mean when they describe the SME and ATC's as 'unmusical' but it is not a term I would be happy to apply. I do hear a kind of micro dynamic 'flattening' but at the same time I am not deaf to their considerable strengths. Many Hi-Fi 'buffs' seem to see the audio world in very black and white terms - somewhat ironic considering how important a rich audio palette is to the reproduction of music.

My pet hate is when people describe the sound of a piece of equipment as 'broken' - if it works it can't be broken. I don't like 'musical' either - one listeners ‘musical’ is another persons idea of ‘unintelligible noise’.

 

I get to hear this little set-up occasionally.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2375/3544623247_aeaa89d0a5.jpg

ATC 50s in a nice piano black fed directly from a DAC with either a Mac or Transport as source. Sounds great and appeals to the minimalist in me.

Makes all these multi box arrangements look a tad complex and all but the most expensive of those don't get near what it provides. Very impressive.

Steve

 

That setup looks great. I'm toying with the idea of getting rid of my CDP, and switching to computer/DAC instead. No idea where to start though.

The Benchmark appeals, but apparently that's "unmusical", too, according to those who believe they know what they are talking about. Since everything else I have is unmusical, apart from a NAC 52, perhaps that's ideal for me!

 

Take a glance at the 'computer audiophile ' forum, extremely interesting and informative , imho mac and firewire dac ,simple elegant and superb sound quality.

 

James, as a taster, get yourself a Musical Fidelity V Dac for £130.
Sounds excellent way beyond the price. It can connect to your PC/laptop via USB or conventional means. Size of a small paperback.

 

Agreed, if you use a PC you must bypass the OS sound kernel though.

 

Good idea, and avoid the USB if possible as it definitely measures a little cleaner via opt/coax - not much in it but clear to see on that particular dac.

 

Yes this guy has a Benchmark and Lavry DA10/DA11 (the one in the pic is the 11) he prefers those, and I must say I feel the same way. There is nothing much sonically between the two Lavry models - the DA11 has a couple of features and a remote option. But it costs quite a bit more.

I have a DA10 myself in a different set-up, but came to the same conclusion compared to the Benchmark.

I share the dislike of terms like "musical" to describe sound but the DAC1 seems a little stark, with a slightly leaner presentation and I just preferred listening to the Lavry. I'll let others argue about which is "correct" but at the same cost - I couldn't have cared either way. It replaced a CDS3 that I had been happy with up until then for much less dosh.

Steve

 

I confess to being a 'newbie' in the world of computer audio. Having a Mac and a digital amp though is a good start, and I intend to experiment soon.

Meantime, I see the CM9 B&W I'm becoming more and more interested in has just won the EISA loudspeaker of the year award for 2009 - 2010. Early reviews suggest the treble and midrange is much more integrated than earlier B&W's at that level, i.e. midrange, in B&W's lineup. Thus far I've only had a cursory listen, but thought there were no problems with integration/coherence through mids and treble of any consequence to be heard.

Bass timing/coherence with the mid/treble seemed good, but I''ll need a listen with my own CD's to be more sure of that. Hopefully this week if I can fit it in, if not, next.

They're certainly a very sexy looking speaker, IMV... shallow I know...lol

Cheers

Jon...

 

Jon,

I was commenting on the SBLs as being a niche product.

I worked part time about 20 years ago in a very flat earth shop and even among the flattest of earthers the SBLs were a hard sell. That you've ditched your Naim electronics but held on the SBLs is -- well -- rather unusual.

Joe

 

My local Naim dealer told me they sold zero SBLs during the time they were being made. None whatsoever. Tons of amplifiers, CD players, etc. etc., but no SBLs. There's a good reason for this.

That's tact above and beyond the call of duty, Joe. Another polite term is that he is an -er- "outlier".

 

Bub,

I strive to be at least three standard deviations from normal in any Gaussian distribution of human behaviour, as the middle is boring and all the fun happens at the edges.

But SBLs with Sony? That has to be at least seven standard deviations from normal.

Joe

 

They are certainly not for folks that can't be bothered with attention to detail when it comes to setup.

"Close" isn't going to work with this speaker's assembly. Let one of the bass bins wobble on its spikes ...even a little...and they'll sound like sh*te (imagine large Kans wired out-of-phase.) Follow the setup manual to the letter and they are one of the best speakers I've ever heard at any price.

 

Dave,

I think that was the problem. The shop I worked at had a single speaker dem policy, which meant that if you wanted to dem, say, three pairs of speakers, including a pair of SBLs, you had a 99.9% chance of setting them up incorrectly. Way too much time and effort to do it right, so they were just quickly plunked down and levelled.

I've also found SBLs to be more room dependent than most near-rear wall speakers. That said, I heard one customer's SBLs sound very good at his house.

Joe

 

Joe- I can't put it any better than JV: "Please watch my fingers: If you move the SBLs AT ALL after set up . . .minimal is some, and some is too much."

I understand they made an "SBL Lifter" for dealers as well as factory personnel to move them about without jolting the bass cabinet but I got the impression from JV even this technique degraded performance eventually with the spikes routing out the pads allowing bass driver box movement. According to JV the only way to move them safely is disassembly and reassembly with a lubricant between the seal allowing easy cabinet separation.

regards,

dave

 

Jon,

If you haven't done this in a while, clean the SBL tweeter's 4 mm male plugs (as well as all the other xover plugs) via insertion ten times or so and followed by a buff with a dry paper towel.

When I received a freshly refurbed CDS2 from Nana to replace my dying CDS I immediately noticed an extremely distorted top-end that wasn't present with my CDS or 101 tuner--it was only present with the "new" CDS2. I almost sent my new CDS2 back for diagnostics until out of desperation, I cleaned the one set of connectors I always neglected during the quarterly ritual--the tweeter connectors.

As you know, they are a PIA to remove and reinsert if hard back against the wall. Well, after cleaning the tweeter connectors and firing up the CDS2 again I was quite shocked. Not only had all the distortion disappeared but the top-end seemed more extended and detailed than it ever had with the CDS mk 1 or 101 tuner. I'm still scratching my head why this would be the case at least with two digital source that pretty much filter out info right above 20K in the same fashion (and more importantly at slighty lower frequencies a fifty year old man probably shouldn't hear either); however, it completely eliminated the distortion!

Just an idea that might bring some life and sparkle back to your SBLs for the interim even if you still decide to ditch them down the road.

regards,

dave

 

Hi Dave; thanks for the tip - you're right, getting the Naim plug out for the tweeter to clean the pins is a right PITA. Consequently it is probably some time - like at least a year - since I've done them; the crossover/main input plugs get cleaned usually about 2-4 times per year. The leads (no longer NACA 5 as they were sold(?)/included with the 180) are terminated in gold plated bananas, so not quite so prone to needing a touch up/in-out/scrape/clean as the nickel plated Naim ones.

I appreciate the apparent dichotomy between Naim SBL's and Sony.

However there are two principle reasons for this.

Whilst the SBL's don't compliment the digital Sony in terms of it's formidable tonal palette and lifelike spatial perspectives, they do however do dynamics rather well - always a Naim strength.

The big Sony is a gorgeous and seductive ballerina in tights compared to my previous Naim re dynamics, which was more like a builder in steel toe capped boots covered in mud, if you'll forgive the analogy. Consequently, the big Sony with it's blinding fast, quicksilver dynamics, results in a presentation of musical line and emotion that is more beguiling and involving to a level that my previous kit could not begin to approach.

Lastly, it is one of cost. I already own a superb amp, so selling off the Naim electronics, whilst with a measure of regret, did not leave me lacking in terms of sound or quality. However, it was also a lesson in that what may apply in the UK re resale value, and overall value (RRP cost new minus effective resale price commanded) does not hold water outside the UK.

Lets just say that despite being in absolutely as new mint condition with no marks or blemishes, complete with all boxes and manuals etc, it effectively sold for a pittance. Indeed before being auctioned off on ebay, it languished in a shop waiting for a hopeful buyer for nigh on 6 months. The reality is that Naim is an orphan here, and as such is exceptionally difficult to sell. Also the global used market courtesy of ebay and the internet means that what one paid for it new, with exchange rates, air - freight to the other side of the world, wholesaler and dealer markup, and luxury goods tax, bears no relation to the price that can be expected when resale time comes. It is always the global, or in this case UK second hand market that sets the price.

Bear in mind, that Naim purchased new here costs not just more or less double the UK pound (roughly converting to Australian dollars) but around 3.5 times by the time all the aforementioned outstretched hands along the way have taken their cut.

So I will almost inevitably have to accept a very large loss, and unfortunately, whilst the SBL's have their faults, they also do some things very well, and will be hard to replace. And of course, I will be relying upon sale price to some degree to assist with funding a replacement, now that I am an impecunious student.

I have already made up my mind that if I decide to sell, I will adopt either of two methods. If the price they command is a pittance, I will either keep them and use them as back surrounds, OR (you will like this..lol) I will put them out in the street, cut them up, set fire to them, and with a VERY BIG sign saying Naim rocks, film the flames, and put it on you tube. Of course, to spare the ignomy and bad publicity, someone could make me a fair offer for a mint pair of walnut SBLs!

Nah, only having a wind up on that one, but I have to say the resale price here considering what one paid new, is a complete joke. So much for high end Audio (and not picking on Naim in particular). Full of religious reverence when you buy, and last years worthless junk when you sell. Was luxury goods consumption ever any different?....LOL High End audio is such a con in so many areas unfortunately IME.

But that's life, and no point in whining about it, just move on and learn from ones' mistakes.

Apologies about the rant...

Anyone want to buy some mint Walnut SBL's, Mark 11 variety, complete with all boxes, manuals, templates etc, in absolutely mint nick? :JOEL:

Heh, I'll go an pour another glass of that lovely red I opened a while back...:SLEEP:

Best Regards

Jon....

 

Jon,

Suppose I really, really, really liked original Star Trek, but for some reason I had been brainwashed by Paramount to buy the complete DVD set of Enterprise, which I at best found barely watchable.

Should I continue to watch Enterprise, hoping that one day I'll get what it's about, or should I sell the DVDs, unfortunately at a loss, and buy the set of discs that would make me much happier?

If I were persistent, I might even be able to find the original discs on eBay or craigslist at less than retail, making the switch less painful.

Joe

 

OK, but permission to snigger, sir?

You've been whinging (like a "Pom") about this for years, but at least you can admit it's your mistake, and not Naim's fault in any way. Personally, I think you hung on to the wrong Naim bits, and have made some very odd choices. Front-end Naim gear should sound very good indeed if you can find the right power amps and speakers (active ATCs in my case).

Tips for avoiding depreciation are to buy s/h and hang on to the kit for years and years. It's easily serviceable, and preamp technology hasn't really advanced at all recently.

 

Jon,

After the wine of course....do clean those tweeter connections and let me know if makes any sort of improvement. (I'm assuming you left the stock NACA driver leads in place that's hard wired to the PXO on the other end.) I turn my 250 off and slip a long-handle screwdriver down the back of the speaker and gently pry the M8s (plastic speaker pin holder/spacers) out of their sockets.

FWIW, mine were a year out from cleaning as well.

regards,

dave