A variation on "floorstanders or standmounts"

Hi All,

I'm considering a speaker upgrade within the next six months or so.

Current system (NAD S300/S500i + MB Quart floorstanders) sounds fine, but I sometimes feel I could "fill" the space a bit better.

The room is very large (42' x 21') but the listening area is about 21' x 21' as I have to listen across the top end of the room. Ceiling height is 14' where the speakers would be and half that at listening position (mezzanine). Listening position is 13,5' from speakers. Could be a little more, not less.

See photos of current speaker placement.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v504/Nadnadnad/PhotosMyKit017.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v504/Nadnadnad/PhotosMyKit019.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v504/Nadnadnad/PhotosMyKit012.jpg

WA(i)F requirements are stringent:
- New speakers would have to be roughly where the old ones are (very little leeway depth wise, they are 10 ft apart and that can be adjusted somewhat) therefore anything deeper would be closer to the rear wall / windows, so the new speakers must be tolerant in that respect (current space between speakers and couches is a minimum).
- Lounge chair between speakers stays.
- Wood veneer finish is an absolute no-no. Must exist in black ash or similar, non-glossy finish.

The only thing I've listened to lately are Martin Logan Clarity (excellent soundstage and WAF). They sell for 3850 € or £2685 (as compared to 2075 € / £1450 in the US at today's rate of exchange) which is an absolute maximum.

I read all kinds of flattering comments on PMC and Dynaudio, which I imagine have better bass.

The only PMC dealer here has nothing on demo. There's one place where I could check out some of the Dynaudios. I'm prepared to go second hand and willing to cross the Channel to listen to the PMCs (or other brands as recommended).

Wife would rather have standmounts and I'm not totally hostile to them, but have no experience whatsoever in that field, and I'm curious to know if a standmount / sub combo would work (how do you connect a sub and speakers together ?)

One last thing, as the S300 is not exactly the type of amp. you can carry around under your arm, what amp. should I ask to use for demo that would be close enough ? I should add that home demoing is not an option within my budget limits.

I'm thankful for any recommendations, preferably from people who have actually heard what they recommend

 

Wow that room and layout looks exactly like the lounge in the house I'm trying to buy currently, double height ceilings and a listening position with speakers backing a windowed wall with width either side. Hmm interesting.

I've been looking at Thiels as a possibility for speaker replacement for my active Roksans, although I'm waiting till I actually get the property before home demoing.

As for amps, everything thing you listen to is gonna be new so try and get as few components in the chain as possible.

I'm sure the NAD boys will be along in a minute to tell what else sounds like the fabled silver lump

 

and it's a beauty, my fave eames chair. if i had £1600 .....

 

I *know* that your floor is *bouncy* and this is having a big (and not very good) effect on your speakers' performance. Get something between those speakers and the floor!
Either of the granite slabs and spikes, or the bouncy castle approach would make a big and positive difference with what you have already for minimal outlay at BHV or Castorama (ooh, quel nostalgie)
Once you've done that. listened a bit more and come to the conclusion that you need new speakers go to the website of J M Reynaud who will be able to provide you with world class speakers at reasonable cost that will suit your listening tastes and environment more or less perfectly.
HTH, and remember, WAF is simply extraneous distortion in SNT factor.

 

I am going to suggest the make that I use very happily with my S300, Meadowlark.

You might be better served in your significant space with the Shearwater over the Kestrel that I have, but the kestrels would probably still have a good stab at it.

Since you've got the big space, you could go for a pair of Apogee Duettas if you can find some, and they're in budget. Whether the WAF is high enough I don't know...

 

Standmount + sub can work but for good results you'd need to spend a fair amount of money on a decent sub which will also be very large and WAF unfriendly. Also, it can be the devils own job to properly integrate a sub in a stereo system.

I bought a relatively cheap sub (MJ Acoustics Pro 50) mainly for my AV system and have tried on and off using it in my stereo system with mixed results. Since finding a huge improvement from a relatively subtle re-adjustment of my speaker positioning I've dropped the sub from my stereo setup for good. I've more or less come to the conclusion that a sub can really only work well when used with active crossovers.

Michael.

 

I was useing Dynaudio 1.1's, very good speakers imo. But where they fell short for me was there greed for power and lacking in lower volumes. I dont think the contour range would suit your room, maybe worth tring some of the larger Dyn's.
I have since changed to Meadowlark Kestrels (same as Isaac has) and find these much better at lower volumes, they are also capable of giving a room filling sound.

 

See what you can do with your current speakers before jumping in the deep end. Not only is this the cheapest advice you will get, it will also help you make a more informed choice when you decide to move on to more expensive speakers.

 

Thank you all for your responsiveness.

PK : The place that demoed the MLs also carries Thiels but although I'm sure they sound great, I doubt their general line/finish would be appealing to SWMBO. Hope you manage to get your hands on that house of your dreams. Nothing beats space. Does a lot for marital longevity too.

RC : Now you're really rubbing it in. As I recall the Eames chair sells here for 2.5 times your figure. True, that's with the "Ottoman" thrown in. Why is everything so much cheaper in the UK?

Joel : Have you had a talk with my wife? She keeps repeating the same words of wisdom. I admit there's a lot of truth in what you say. Actually, the MB Quarts are superb speakers, and changing amps after 15 years has literally thrown new life into them, but you know it's a slippery slope… And BTW I was at the BHV only this afternoon. Walking distance from home.

Isaac : I'll have a look at the Meadowlarks or maybe I should join in a bake-off one of these days ? I doubt anyone represents them in Paris.

Penance : I'm afraid Dynaudios larger than Contours are out of reach. But maybe I should take Joel's advice and save my pennies and get some Evidence when they start hitting the second hand market in a few years (I mean 20). There's an ex-demo pair for sale somewhere in the provinces for a mere 22000 euros. (£15,000+). Now, do you know how many bottles of wine this would buy?

Michael : I'm sure SWMBO will gladly do without a sub in her living room. Thanks for the advice.

Seems that none of you thinks too highly of the PMCs ?

 

Sieur,
I would never recommend Dynaudios to anyone. Even the BBC seems to be having second thoughts.
Try J M Reynaud. Easy to find in Paris, and even better, they should be easy to find second hand / ex-dem at a reasonable price.
The Offrandes would be a stunning match for your floor ;-0
Your wife is eminently sensible. That's very dangerous.
I think 22K euros would maybe be good for a case or two of Le Pin these days, but it's not Petrus terriitory. Back in the good old days you could buy a case of Cheval Blanc '70 for a few centimes...

 

One thing is clear: the MLs would never work in your room if they had to be placed where your current speakers are.

I'm not sure which MB Quarts you have (980?). Some of them were actually rather good and you'd need to spend a tidy sum to substantially better them. MB have also just come out with a new speaker line for stereo use, after concentrating on ICE for a time, and the new stuff has been well-received in Germany.

Given that you have very large glass surfaces, I'm not sure the JM Reynauds Joel's championing would be a good choice. The models I've heard had a rather prominent treble range, which does not mate well with a lot of glass.

Please give us a bit more info:

preferred music style?
preferred listening level?
want to buy used or new?
what are you looking to improve?

 

That is a good point. Worth a listen, though.
I think Sir Galahad's musical taste can be understood if you read underneath his name...

 

MB Quarts are 980 S. I spent endless hours 15 years ago listening to all kinds of speakers and settled for those because they had the best sound/WAF ratio (very nicely finished in non-glossy black).

I'm basically an ancient music freak (Bach, Rameau, Monteverdi, Purcell, et al.) with a penchant for voices, strings, organ, cembalo.

But I'm also a baby boomer with a soft spot for heavy rock (Stones, Beatles, Pink Floyd and Led Zep among many others). (Hope Tones is not listening).

And I'm currently listening to more and more jazz.

I find that I like to play it loud from time to time, but I usually listen at neighbor-friendly level. I believe a cello should never sound louder than it would if it were live.

Hi-fi types are usually quite careful with their gear and I see no reason not to investigate the second hand market.

And as I said, I sometimes feel the sound is a bit "lost" in space, not "filling" enough. But this is not easy to put in words.

 

You're quite right, but this should also be read stricto sensu.

 

Great, that narrows it down

You're as sensible then as your wife.

I think I know exactly what you mean. The solution for your problem will be difficult money- and size-wise. You need more cone area, which means bigger drivers in bigger speakers. At least a 10", better 12" bass driver with a 4 or 6" midrange.

A good start could be something from JBL. The 250 Ti Jubilee, Ti 5000 or Ti 10K could fit your requirements. Others here will have more recommendations.

 

I may well be a baby boomer, but that was way before my time.

And I'd have a CÃ'teaux du Languedoc anytime rather than an overpriced, Parkerized (rhymes with Maderized) Bordeaux.

But that's off topic, sorry.

 

Agreed.
I can only afford du pif qui tache these days.
A wine thread on Zerogain. Who'd have thought it!

 

Hey, I enjoy wine.
Can never remember the names tho
Does that make me only half hethen?

 

We've had a brief one before on t'chat thingy

Always room for another

 

We get enough whining on here already thanks