Accuracy Part 3.

Whilst trawling the net last night I found a letter from Judd Barber that neatly summed up my feelings about some of the subjects recently discussed.

Below is an excerpt, I just wish I'd been able to put it so succinclty.

IMO that just about sums it up Good reading for Berry I suspect

 

Doesnt always matter though does it? Most of the music I listen to is trance, and there is no real musical instruments in that music anyway. I've never found tube gear as good for synthetic music as solid state, so thats something to bear in mind. Having said that, I am not an audiophile in the "traditional" sense of the word....

 

I just wonder why...

 

Come on Paul - you've obviously not heard decent tube gear. I'm currently listening to Underworld on vinyl & valves. Fabulous. I saw them in concert last year. Listening to DNBWMHM with 18w triodes and efficient speakers had me feeling like I was back at the gig - not sat in front of some naff hifi.

So it's not like I don't listen to electronica. It forms a large part of my listening and it all sounds far better on a decent turntable and valve setup, particularly if you've got a live reference as I have. You are welcome to take the test so to speak if you are ever daan saaf

Odd that isn't it

 

Each to his own.BD can search for his holy grail of accuracy,its his money and his life.I won't be,but good luck to him all the same.

 

Absolutely Saab,

I just thought some words of wisdom from an engineer who has been down the same journey as many of us might be able to save him a lot of anguish

 

Yes I admit I havent heard decent valve gear. Reading back that was a sweeping generalisation, i'm sorry

The valve stuff I have heard and can afford though, isnt as good for dance as the solid state stuff I have heard at around the same price... is that better?

If I'm ever down your way then yeah I'll give it a workout

 

i was only being reasonable so i can unreasonably throw insults out later

 

Fair enough Paul.

I guess Judd's point is that an accurate transistor based system can sound very good indeed, but you have to look elsewhere for the sensation of listening to real musicians.

My experience mirrors that almost exactly. I just feel it gives a very good insight into why there are those for whom so called accuracy is unimportant.

It is the illusion of live music that is paramount to them and I respect them for that. IME, their systems sound a darn sight more like live music than any system based on specifications. Go for specs by all means but prepare for long term disatisfaction and disinterest. Even Michael has now found that something that measures poorly sounds substantially better. Once you accept that fact, you are on the path to enlightenment

 

I guess both approaches are valid. With respect to amps though I know that one of the systems that has given me the best illusion of live music is TD's system and his amp is very close to being a "wire with gain"

Michael.

 

IM extremtly opinionated and not so humble Opinion, and not having heard them, output transformerless valve amps are inferior to regular ones.

The ouptut transformer matches the valves high ouptut impedance, perhaps 100s or 1000s of ohms, down to the 8 ohm loudspeaker, whilst stepping down the 100s of volts, and stepping up the current.

Engineers never liked the ouptut transformer, it was heavy, perhaps 6kg, and difficult to design, typically has 1/2 a mile of wire or more in it!!, and still littered with 'problems' ie you have to get the bass and treble done properly, and they are at odds with each other, so you ideally have to go for the best you can at both.( this is partly the reason I baulk at audiofile buzzwords like short signal paths and no coupling capacitors....my amp has 1/2 mile of wire in it, and coupling caps, along with a hunk of silicon steel the signal has to go thro', yet sounds infinitely better than a direct coupled blah blah blah..)

But my preference now is with triodes, which allow no feedback to be used, but at full powers, typically giving 6% 2nd harmonic distortion.

Now having listened to feedback valve amps and zero feedback, adding feedback over a number of stages is the worst possible thing you can do, its not so bad around a single stage.

It totally saps the dynaimcs, 'realness' and fluidity and expression of the music, along with soundstage, the very parts of the audiophool spectrum I rate most highly.

output transformerless amps HAVE to have lots of feedback, so I don't believe they can be anywhere near as good as a simple transformer coupled output stage.

Just remember one thing, that engineers design to mathematics, and engineering perfection doesn't give musicality as much as the infidelity marketing types would have you think,(fascinating as they are) engineering perfection frequently is at odds with subjective musicality (defined in my way above) ...to get somethiing that measures perfect, it must be complex, and that really does kill music, my theory, too that japanese amps, wonderful and clever technically that they are, aren't GENERALLY as musical as simple british ones.( I still like transistor amps., tho' side by side, they aren't as good)

 

Yes Michael. As I told you once, people talk without knowing, in pratical terms, what accuracy is. They never ever have heard an amplifier with virtual zero distortion, but we did and we know that it sounds "alive", emotionally envolving and fatigue free.

Those who say that accuracy is not important are of two kinds:

A) Audiophiles that cannot name an amplifier with virtually perfect null, when connected to their speakers;

B) Manufacturers that don't know how to build them.

And all I see is either A or B. TD is neither.

Remember just one thing Michael, as more closely as we get to accuracy the more discerning the ear becomes. It's like coming from deafness to "maximum ear" hability. A and B still remain half deaf.

I'm waiting for you to have a listen to the RA01... not TD amp but a step in that direction. Best bass and dynamics I have ever heard with the yammies after TD's amp, not as fatigue free as the latter, because it still has some measurable distortion, but great insight and live presentation, almost as emotionally envolving... almost.

PS: By the way, when is Sofia's anniversary (I know we are near...). I want to give her a call.

 

Trouble is that the 'illusion of reality' created by these inaccurate systems doesn't relate to the reality that the original musicians existed in.

There should be a name for these fantasy systems other than 'hifi' so we can disarm these pointless threads.

Paul

 

Paul, How do you know that your system is accurate.

Also you have included my setup in the "fantasy system" bracket in the past, have you heard my set-up? How could you know wherther it's accurate or not, Just coz you know who says so, he also says atc need mana yet fox disagrees?

Could you help me out here, as your arrogance about accuracy and what constitutes is some what amusing to me.

Maybe you should visit me nec=xt time you are up here and point out where I am going wrong

 

Amen to that .

Not doubt merlin will be asking me "but what about your inaccurate DAC then?". I've actually answered that question in a previous thread about accuracy but don't have time to repeat it now in full. Suffice it to say that I think it's possible that my DAC potentially renders a more accurate representation of the original recording than one that measures well

Michael.

PS: Vasco, it's Sofia's 30th birthday today

 

jeez, someone more opionated and set in his ways than me!!

has bub mutated?

Could someone please tell me what they are talking about when they mean accurate? define accurate, and how their setup delivers it...

 

Good points well made, LCD. :respect:

 

I believe accuracy is very important everywhere in your live. Not only in one field but also in what you do, at work, at home, in your hobbies and with your friends.
I believe also that to be accurate or to look for accuracy is part of education and tradition.
When I read BD's words with his obsession to accuracy and I think where he lives (if known worldwise certainly not for accuracy),I get really mixed feelings.

 

Personally, I reckon the idea that an 'accurate' hi-fi system would somehow make music dull and disinteresting sounds like another crazed-audiophile-delsuion to me. Maybe if you guys listened to the Beatles, you wouldn't need added distortions?

 

yeah maybe, but the beatles suck... :duck: