acoustic zen or chord indigo?

All that is needed in a case like that is for a single post that says basically 'We don't all think cables even make a difference. If you just assume they do because of all you have seen in mags and adverts, then you might like to read in to the subject a little deeper; there are a lot of tests that suggest differences are inaudible. If you have already come to your own conclusions about this, then please continue.'

 

About time you lot took notice of the original question ....
An honest question was asked so if you've no experience with either of the cable why are you posting here other than to have an argument ?

The question was a choice between two cables ...not should I bother buying a new cable ....So any talk of saving money is way off the mark to the point of trolling imo

I'd suggest a few of you take a deep breath re read the original question and if you can't add anything thats related to either zen or chord ....go play elsewhere. Or better still start your own thread on preamps or reviewers or what ever it was that side tracked you.

 

-- Ian

 

Your note seems a bit biased but the idea is sound.
FYI Continual batterings from naysayers do become tedious
There was a survey - Done by you I think that suggested a 50/ 50 split - I think the words should reflect that
Andy

 

Classic

 

Basically, what I was trying to do.

Unfortunately it seems my electrical knowledge wasn't capable of accurately reflecting the point that I was trying to make.

On the other point -
You can't ask half the people on one side of an arguement not to comment unless requested to do so, that would be grossly unreasonable.

From a moderators perspective, we've asked people to show restraint on this topic, and a little restraint has occured. More restraint is still needed, up to the point where the discussion is friendly. The best moderation is when people moderate their own behaviour.

 

Or even:

 

I thought we had addressed that. I have experience of the Acoustic Zen - many do as Tony Sallis was promoting these on this forum about four or five years ago.

Turns out Robert Lee (AZ) buys cable in bulk from Taiwan, repackages it in a fancy box, markets it with pseudo science, and charges $500 per meter.

For me, I never missed it one iota when I sold it and my system today with simple OFC freebie interconnect is far more revealing than my setup of four years ago. It made no impression on me whatsoever in hindsight so I personally wouldn't waste my money on that one. Nice packaging though

Never heard that Chord - had other Chords which did nothing except break their contacts at the RCA and stop working. Still have those if someone with a soldering iron wants some freebies. All of them. All six cables. Never had a freebie do that in 15 years. Oh and mine were green and gold which in hindsight was a rather ugly combination and the packaging was crap.

 

Depends on your definition of "derogatory". In my fairly extensive experience of these debates, cable believers often use insults as their first line of defence, yet plead innocence and pretend that they're the ones who've been insulted first.

Cable debates will continue until cable believers demonstrate their claims have some basis in reality. That's the blunt truth, there's no way around it.

-- Ian

 

Which was exactly why my quote applied to both sides of the question. It would be for BOTH sides to agree to refrain from such remarks. It appears from your post, sideshowbob, that you, at least, would not agree to such a position.

 

The problem is that the application and quotation of scientific principles is considered derogatory by some - or so it would appear.

As Ian says above,

 

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find me insulting people, even when the debate gets heated, I'd rather reason with people than insult them (I do take the piss on occasion, but that's done with humorous intent). People claim offence when they're questioned closely, but that's a different thing entirely. The problem is defining what you mean by "derogatory".

-- Ian

 

I think what we are currently seeing here on ZG is little short of a power struggle and the non-believers are winning the argument- there are more of them posting and they have a weightier presence overall, especially when grouped together.

For a newbie posting an innocent question on cables, such as on this very thread, they are likely to be met with stronger non-believer answers, warning them against wasting their money:

What's certain is that the Cable wars will continue and what is also likely is that newbies will be met with the above response on a regular basis, with little recourse from the moderators..

IMO, Zero Gain can do one of three things:

1. Nothing, and let mob rule prevail.

2. Acknowledge that most here, including the 3 active mods, are non-believers and make an official statement, such as the ones devised by Tenson and Bottleneck. This would probably take the form of a sticky.

3. Come out in favour of neutrality, using Czechchris excellent statement. Emmen's earlier suggestions by might also be considered.

IMO:

Option 3 would be taking a stand for a major principle of the AUP:
"This forum is totally independent and not affiliated to any particular hifi ideology. Flat earth or round and anything in between are welcomed. "

Option 2 would be the most radical step in that it would be acknowledgment that this forum isn't a neutral place- which in reality it isn't because the stronger characters here tend have a greater influence on the collective forum voice. Groups also tend to rally around or against a product or manufacturer, sometimes unfairly. But it would be a sincere and bold statement.

Option 1 is the one ZG is most likely to chose. After all, its far easier and safer to do nothing

 

The whole problem with cable debates is that the non-believers are backed by science and measurements, whilst the believers only have their beliefs.

The ony problem I have is that when peoples beliefs are questioned, I see any almost heretical fanaticism evolve, which taken to it's logical conclusion is why this world is as troubled as it is.

 

I just people wouldn't argue all the time - the non believers should just let the cables guys get on with it and not post in their threads...

 

Cable reviews in the press are frequently called in to question.

If a review of 5 cables in a magazine is performed and it was thought that cable X was better then should we trust the reviewers judgement?

I have seen in many a cable thread that the mag must be on the take for advertising revenue and therefore give that cable a favourable review. I believe it was John Atkinson of Sterophile that actually sued somebody for saying exatctly this.

 

As we evolve our liking of music and educate our ears to how we like it we audition kit and stop reading reviews. We buy kit that appeals to us. Sometime it is very difficult to say why one thing is sounds better than another, we just know it.

 

But the statements I have read by the 'scientific measurement camp' are the ones that reflect an almost evangelistic zeal in challenging any statement that relies on subjectivity. And they wish to preserve their right to continue to challenge at will any statement made by a 'cable believer'.

So we have 'heretical fanaticism' versus 'evangelistic zeal'. Not a conducive atmosphere to any debate, IMO.

 

So do the non believers accept that the wrong cable can affect your system in a negative way as in say litz wire creates instabilty in some amps?-backed by sound technical measurement and reasons I'd say yes-but it wont wreck every system-with better amp designs maybe.
Which leads me to my point which goes a long way in accepting the measurable argument but posits the notion that without the lcr figures for the cables 'and' the electrical characteristics of the devices they're connecting to an absolute response isn't entirely supported because there's electrical parameters at each end that are unknown to the respondents.
I make this post on the assumption that there's a sensible cable Avs B question nothing in mad moneyland.
This is more of a question than an opinion so put your willies away.

 

Hi

There's no question that Zerogain is open to all and sundry.

There is little control over content, because that's what the people in the forum want. Moderators have run polls on the type of moderation wanted, and the forum answered that it wanted only moderation in extreme cases, and things like swear filters and the like took a swift exit.

If there is a forum bias towards a more 'scientific' approach to cables, then it is because that is the view of more people posting on the forum.. the forums not biased, it simply reflects the thoughts of the people that post. Moderators views on hifi are irrelevant.

The moderators do all feel that people in their 30's and 40's and 50's can act like little children (not pointing ANY fingers here).. and some need to de-personalize arguements making them simple rational debate.