acoustic zen or chord indigo?

I know it's annoying to answer a question with a question (apologies) but if we don't know the performance from one combination to another, how does the manufacturer know the alledged sonic attributes of it's cables and how does the reviewer relay them to the reader?

 

I'm not sure any side is winning David. I fear for ZG actually. Some of the deplorable behaviour seen here recently helps to illustrate that neither side is actually listening to the other. Apart from a couple of posters I don't recall anyone saying that cables do not make a difference. What guys like myself and S&M are saying is that the differences can be explained by LCR or other characteristics such as immunity/susceptibility to noise/rf/emf etc.etc. Instead we have also been branded as "non-believers" or "naysayers". In addition some are saying that the differences are there but so small that they are not worth arguing about.

Another thing to bear in mind is that we all hear differently and we may not all focus on the same aspects of sound. This does not mean that anyone asking legitimate questions is deaf. I remember that someone who shall remain nameless once quoted a x% improvement after a tweak. I questioned how was this improvement measured and there was no answer. IMO it is OK to ask such questions.

I'd say listen for yourself and if the gains are worthwhile to you then sod everyone else. But whatever you do, do it objectively.

Unfortunately true.

Not true.

My own view is that the differences between cables exist but are small and can be explained by LCR or other characteristics such as immunity/susceptibility to noise/rf/emf etc.etc.

As has been said already by at least 2 moderators we try and be as impartial as we can. Just because a person on one side was banned does not mean that it was because of difference of opinion or bias. A number of posters were warned about their posts. Most moderated their own behaviour except the person who was banned, who chose instead to throw accusations of bias rather than do as requested. Some posters are very careful with their wording and pay very close attention to AUP while others just throw insults, regardless of the arguments. Who do you think will be banned?

Having said that we are not perfect and can make mistakes. Please feel free to PM us or post publicly where you see any decisions you don't agree with but stay within AUP. If you'd like to become a moderator please let us know we will consider anyone. N.B. Consider does not mean you'll get the job, just seriously considered. .

Finally please bear in mind that you do not see all the posts. You may not know who started the name calling. For some people merely being questioned is offensive. For example, Ian normally puts forward well reasoned arguments and has never resorted to throwing personal insults (please feel free to prove me wrong) yet is thought of as rude. Why? Just because he asked for certain statements to be proven?

 

Surely nobody thinks I'm rude?

I'm outraged, I tell you, OUTRAGED!



-- Ian

 

Without all the facts how can anyone?.
Does this mean you are embracing the point or not?

 

Originally posted by me 10 days ago..

So what you propose now, I beleive I proposed ten days ago, and got shouted down for it. Understand the frustration?

 

ergo;
So posters of either persuation are really not in any position to undermine or ridicule what changes people 'hear' in their own systems when swapping out cables-not without all the facts anyway.
Oh, and the purple prose of the cable co's should be taken for the advertising it is and with a large pinch of salt.

 

thanks for all your thoughts, az seems more well known but I am surprised no one seems to have any personal experience of indigo which is the top cable from a very well known manufacturer.
I guess I `ll have to find one to demo !!

 

Claims of "jaw dropping improvements", "taming of rooms" and "stage to the stars" can still be treated with distain. Any possible differences have to be, by definition very small, unrepeatable in other systems, and still open to the accusation that they are imaginary as no one has yet returned a positive under controlled conditions.

In short it's a lottery, and a free cable stands just as much chance of sounding right as a £2K interconnect. Hardware upgrades, room treatments, and acoustic modelling are repeatable, verifiable and long term investments. The changes one can expect from these will be an order of magnitude greater than any cable swap could possibly provide. It's really a no brainer where a clever person's money should go. Don't you agree?

 

Mike, You are asking me to stop believeing my ears this is difficult - can you point me to any fair blind testing of cables.
I have only seen a few tests but they were all short term with many contributors in unfamiliar conditions. Not really sure if these tests are valid - Dodgy tests seem to favour your camp?

You are the one flying in the face of conventional wisdom in hifi terms - i would say that the burden of proof should be with you?

Armed with decent data I might stop believing my ears.

regards
Andy

 

Where did I say we didn't know all the facts? We are in full possession of all the facts that we need to disprove much of what people claim to hear with their ears - and not just cables . There is sadly no evidence to the contrary. Sorry about that. I thought I'd spelt that out enough times already.

Andy,

I know it's difficult - I was just as convinced. The only way to see the other side is to test your convictions under contolled conditions. Then at least you know that it is your ears that are telling you something. In my case, they told me the scientists, Ian, Tones and the others were right.

I've offered to host a blind test bake off but sadly Zanash doesn't seem to want to provide a cable for us all to test. As you are only up the road, you would be more than welcome to come down for a social if we can get it organised.

 

As far as I could glean from our correspondence you accepted that as well as a particular cables LCR the elec characteristics of the pieces of kit either end could well contribute to percieved 'sound' differences(granted -all measurable).
But specific to a particular post YOU dont know the LCR of the said cables and the elec characteristics of the kit that sits at either end in a particular posters system.
So you dont have any 'facts' in terms of the numbers as far as I can see.
So to explain away their perception without having the figures is pure supposition and speculation.
Or do you dismiss your own perception as readily?

 

Cooky,

You are trying to make a case for such an extreme electrical mismatch that in reality would never happen. I have enough facts to know that the numbers in use in the audio world will not be extreme enough to produce "music instead of noise" or jaw dropping increases in overall resolution.

But if you have an example that proves otherwise, then I'll be up for hearing it.

 

No I'm not. At no point have I mentioned nonesense like jaw dropping.Our discussion was about "noticable differences" .
I'm bored now:SLEEP:

 

Thanks - Im happy to take up this kind offer. Obviously a useful opportunity for me personally but perhaps also way to help get the ZG heart beating better.

Andy

 

Not entirely.

I am also a private individual just like anyone else who happens to have enjoyed hi-fi for over 35 years. That cane long before any commercial interests.

Having said that, my exposure to cables has given me a lot of first hand experience of what cables can and cannot do, whereas your opinions are mostly conjecture. Where we differ is I don't shove my ideologies down anyone's throat, but you seem to on some kind of crusade to assuage your failing ego.

 

I will be honest,

I would rather use 1m of Chord Chameleon silver plus, or any after market £30 by Van Den Hul or a basic DNM interconnect, than the freebie thin black cable with red and white plugs which comes free in the box. DO THESE SOUND BETTER?

I remember having a discussion with someone else who stated no difference could be heard, he also knew what he was talking about and used to work for the BBC.

The thing is, if you are 60-70 years old with a pair of speakers from the 70's which have not been restored or serviced in any way, and you are running them with a Nad surround reciever. With the freebie interconnects and bell wire. Would you expect to hear a difference? and how convenient would claims of no measurable difference be.

I WOULD STILL LIKE TO KNOW IF IT IS DEFINITE THAT VAN DAMME 2.0 and ATLAS HYPER 2.0 SOUND THE SAME DUE TO THE COPPER CONDUCTORS BEING THE SAME SIZE?

 

he does have a point tho, SM...

 

So why be critical of the statement below then with the following?

 

Can't disagree. Some die hards are alienated by these facts. I can't help that - are you suggesting we don't discuss the truth for fear of hurting their feelings and driving them away?