Advice needed on improving life and energy

Maybe. I am not prepared to comment on this.

 

The same problems you have, trying to do the un-do-able. Ray Allison (and by implication Linn) got it nearer by realising a box is working in a box, not trying to make the larger box to effectively cease to exist, impossible IMO. Coupling *NOT* decoupling, which is what capacitors - accoustic or otherwise functionally do!

I think what you are trying to do is nonsense, so why should I give you more nonsense to try to re-enforce it. You need to let go, but you can't as your ego and self are too attached to it, hence all the emotional claptrap flying out from you. You have invested personally in the cul-de-sac you are stuck up. So you cannot reverse out without thinking others will think you are an idiot. So you defend the indefensible and confuse others in the process.

Anyway I give up trying to help you now, rattle on to your hearts content.

Richard

 

No amount of room correction, be it mechanical, or digital, will turn a bad enviroment/system into a good one, IMHO. The best you can hope for, is that it won't seem quite so irritating for about a quarter of an hour.
We are only listening to electrons. If these are unwell, your system will sound uninvolving, as if someone has just told the band they ain't getting paid.
Start at the beginning. What's coming out of the wall ?

 

Whoopee!! bullseye from an arrowhead

Richard

 

Thanks Richard;
IMHO the mains bestrides all things audio like a colossus.

 

The only way to 'couple' to the room in a positive and accurate way is to use the speakers flush mount with the wall so that all reflections from that wall are in phase. A very good method it is too. You can also do well by getting as close to it as possible, like Naim do with their speakers that go up against the wall or Tannoy with their corner loaders. Even so, this does not change the decay time of the sound which is a major, major factor.

In the mid and high frequencies coupling with the room means lots of reflections, omni is a good example, but will simply rule out any thought of fidelity to the original recording venue.

I agree that the speakers need to be designed with the room in mind and that is a point seemingly missed by a lot of manufactures.

I find it hardly surprising that you harass me for not entering discussion of the subject with you and then when I attempt to do so you refuse to provide any subject matter to discuss. I am genuinely interested in the work surrounding the 10pi - what exactly where they trying to do with it? You have not said. If you decide to hold up your end of the discussion then I will contribute, otherwise I am very tired of this and your attitude which is starting to make me post grumpy sounding messages!

 

As long as you try to work with it, warts an' all, and not try to decouple from it the way some people try to go. Then more of the same problem as we are addressing accoustically. The *cure* is then often worse than the problem.

Richard

 

If the band ain't getting paid it does not matter for them what's coming out of the wall.

Don't start from the begining. Address the problem instead. Give them some money.

"Energy" and "life" are intrinsic qualities of the the active components, mostly amplification. All the rest is wishful thinking and waste of time in the situation.

 

I don't think any of the various decoupling or filtering ' solutions' work. Baby out with the bath water, and all that.
Some mains leads can make usefull improvements to the quality of the sound, but only when the mains is flying; if/when the mains goes south, nothing will save you.It's just that you start from a slightly higher plateau.
Some people are lucky, and never have a problem; others lead a life of aural misery, never knowing from one moment to another if their hi-fi will perform to its' potential.
At this time, I don't know what the answer is, if I ever find out, I will let you all Know.

 

The problem only occurs at the time of listening. The problem is a result of the interaction of the wavefront from the speakers and the effect of room boundaries on this wavefront. Therefore one cannot look at these issues independently, they must be considered as a system

 

Richard I have no commercial interest in room treatment, however I think this design approach is flawed. A loudspeaker / box designer can only design for a limited number of potential room configuration / large boxes OR they can attempt to design the loudspeaker to be unaffected by any environment they put it in, which IMHO is impossible as what the listener hears is a combination of the wavefront from the speakers plus the reflections from the room boundaries. I don't think any master of design could make their loudspeakers sound the same in an open plan loft with hard floors, plasterboard stud walls and a front room of a cottage with a suspended floor and brick walls and a thick carpet on the floor.

 

One word... headphones

 

:JPS: but what about the ear wax capacitor?

 

What the hell is sound the same. Is the music the same, does it move you. You build around what you have got. Decouple in any direction and the baby goes out with the bathwater as arrowhead says. It is so easy to try to do too much. Get things to work for you warts and all, don't try to fight them with filters.

Richard

 

I've lost interest in this debate, there is zero scientific or empirical evidence behind what you say. I AM trying to get my system to work in MY room that's why I am asking people's advice. A bass trap or diffuser panel is no different to a big sofa or a bookshelf. Maybe you just like to listen to single driver systems in your concrete bunker. Well go ahead, I'm more interested in real world performance.

 

Its a shame when things like this happen, after all we are here to look for help and advice and to give it too not petty bickering. Dont give up Zodiac try another thread and perhaps it wont get this bad again. It has been a bit quiet on here though hasn't it.:chop: the end Jimbo.

 

If designing Hi-Fi equipment had anything to do with scientific and empirical evidence then anyone could do it

I josh of course but it has to be a balance which is difficult to maintain. Objective criteria initially - subjective criteria to tune - objective to ensure safety - subjective to fine tune. It is an on and on going process. I find it interesting that you ask a question you now say you have the answer for. In many way I am devils advocate with a little spare time as I am waiting for deliveries so I provide food for thought. Or do you you just want some one to confirm your predudices. Sofas and carpets are not like bass traps and acoustic flim flam. For a start you can sit on them

Make your own choices in life but don't ask for advice unless you want to hear alternatives. I am advising you to get the system to work not the room. As others have also tried to explain, start at the beginning keep it simple and you will find *your* answer.

Richard

 

Starting at the beginning is good advice but not everyone has the luxury of a purpose built room, or the ability to try many different positions for the system and speakers within the room.
The dimensions, build materials, contents and furnishings will impose a signature on any system used in the room. If you cannot knock down walls, wall up fireplaces, open out alcoves, replace wooden floors with concrete (and vice-versa) then it is sensible to employ some room treatment if that makes the music more enjoyable - which it can.

Richard, your ideas would be fine in some utopian listening room but sadly we - your customers - have to make the best of what we have. Getting the best at the beginning of the chain is obvious and hardly needs stating but there is nothing wrong with giving the system a helping hand.

 

You misunderstand me yet again. I am saying do not create a utopian listening room, nor do I want one, nor have I ever found one. What I am saying if you read the posts is that your room is your room, and if a system performs correctly the room is immaterial. Music is music, sound signature is something else, which is important if you can't have both? And sound signature fades into unimportance if the music is right. Try to get the sound signature right to *your* perceived predudice and you will lose the music. So you are intellectually satisfied and emotionally barren, fine if that is what you want. Should we start at the real beginning and ask "what is music".

If the system is right the room is unimportant. No forms of accoustic manipulation have ever worked musically. They may work technically, they may work tonally, but musically nah. They have cocked up both Festival and Albert Halls and they always will. The band plays where the band plays.

Richard