An open post to the forum's Naim representatives

Now, one of my new year resolutions was not to knock Naim just for the sake of it. I intend to stick to that.

What I would like to know is whay is there such absolutism when it comes to many Naim users, where anyone failing to tow the company line is ridiculed at the first opportunity? I have nothing against Naim's products, they are not for me (sonically speaking), but the closed vision of many of it's devotees grates.

Certain members would have you believe that the ultimate upgrade is always made in Salisbury. Why? I understand that Naim has a loyal user base here in the UK, built up by various means and some historical merit by the company, but the comments by the likes of Mr Parry cannot be borne out in the real world.

As an example, let me refer to the US market, undoubtedly the largest market for quality hifi on the planet. Now for year 2002/2003, Naim increased it's turnover in said marketplace, from £749,000 to £917,000 - a reasonable increase.

However, to put that into perspective, if we estimate the average unit cost to be £1500, then the above equates to approximatly 600 units or 50 per month. Now given the fact that the mainland of the US has more than 50 States, most of which are larger than the UK, that means that each of these States is selling just one Naim component per month at best.

Given the choice of equipment available Stateside, and the purchasing power/enthusiasm of the populace, why would the purveyors of the finest hifi in the world be unable to sell to a wider audience, particularly given that their marketing spend over there is not inconsiderable?

For the open minded, we would have to assume that, whilst Naim undoubtedly has it's place in the hifi world, it is not the universal solution that some would have us believe. My mind is drawn back to Stereophile's report from Home entertainment 2002. IIRC, he enjoyed the performance of the Naim setup, which comprised CDS2/XPS, 552, 500 and Dynaudio C4 (good shout, Dyn's work well with Naim to my ears). Total system price was $60K. In the next paragraph he listened to the same track through another system, Sim Eclipse, P5, W5, Merlin VSM (total cost $25K). His verdict as i recall was that it was every bit the equal in terms of quality and accuracy, the Naim setup merely sounding bigger than the homegrown alternative, no doubt due to the massive Dyns (I can concurr, they sound huge!!)

So it would seem that in the US, Naim fails to give the "most bang for your Buck", hence the low market penetration.

So I am not knocking Naim, just trying to explain why I get so annoyed when certain members make the kit out to be unparalelled on ZG. I have no doubt that, if it were as good as some say, the world would be a happier place. But in the meantime, do give credance to those of us who have found alternatives that we consider to both sound better and offer substantially better value for money.

 

Linn and naim are just a brit thing,like the people who every four years tell you "this time well get it right,and win the world cup",just small fish in a big pond,thier very very rarely mentioned here,and its not that far away,my local dealer has had a cd 3.5? on his shelf along with a pre power for well over a year,so to me it's just a brit thingy.

 

I think its unfair to brand the whole company due to a couple of posters who are real fanatics. There are a great many people who like Naim kit, but are in no way fundamentalist about it. I refer to this as 'the Mana factor', i.e. a tiny minority of incredibly vocal fanatics gave the brand such a bad name online that it reflects negatively on the many perfectly reasonable people who use it. Once someone supports a audio manufacturer like they would a football team any semblance of credibility has long since left the picture.

I deliberately stayed out of the recent turntable thread here as it was degenerating into yet another anti-Linn hate rant from a minority of (IMHO remarkably uninformed) posters. There is only a certain number of times it is possible to repeat the same argument…

Tony.

 

Thanks Tony, and I agree it is only a small proportion. Sadly they are highly vociferous, which in my opinion reflects poorly on the company concerned. If anything these evangelists to more harm than good, managing to create anti Naimees like myself.

FWIW, I believe Naim are shipping about 90 units a moth across the entire European continent, so I guess Adam is right that it's a particularly British phenomenon.

 

Merlin

I suspect you are whinging about me.

To kick off, I am not a Naim nut.

I have Naim black boxes

I have Linn speakers not Naim

Those speakers are mounted on Mana racks

I use Hutter racking not Naim

I use a Loricraft PSU not Naim for the TT

Also I cannot really recall discussing Naim recently but I have contributed a few postings advocating Loricraft's Garrard 501. So where is the Naim mania.

Regards

Mick

 

Merlin, relax. It really doesn't matter.

-- Ian

 

Ian,

I agree and can assure you that I am writing this whilst listening to great music, well Lee Scratch Perry actually!

I just want some sense of balance. Afterall, if the rest of the world chooses to buy an alternative, then maybe, just maybe, there is other products out there worth listening to.

 

I think naim struggle in the US for a collection of reasons:

if you got the cash to throw down on a top naim system, then you probably have a big room. DBL's are big and rather ugly, and with the space available boundary placement is neither a priority nor a necessity.

While other speakers are available, they are rather demanding of naim's limp-wristed amps (the NAP500 is insanely expensive and can only be described as modest in its power output).

naim's pre-amps "condition" the signal for their power-amps, so partnering a naim pre with a bryston is a non-stater, and naim perpetuate the magical synergy of their pre/power combo.

Next, we have their sources. Now the CDS2 isn't a bad player (it's the only piece of naim kit I own). But it's a pain in the ass to setup: if you beleive the naim forum, you need fraim, fancy din-to-phono's (Chord isn't good enough) and special mains arrangements (see the endless spur bullshit on the naim forum). A conservative estimate is you need another $5K of tweaks to make "optimize the performance" of your $12K CD player.

Coming back to mains, we might conclude from the logic of spurs that equipment designed for 240v/50Hz cannot perform "optimally" on 110v/60Hz

naim have the fondness for the "puck" which is a nuisance to say the least - who want's that hassle? Also because of "microphony" (ho ho ho), the CDS2 has a suspended sub-chassis which makes moving the damn thing even a few feet something of a gamble with a big repair bill.

In conclusion, it all goes wrong starting with the speakers, the amps are too weedy, and the front end too finicky.

I should offer a special mention to the din connectors, which for all of their (claimed) technical merit cause a lot of interconnection headaches. While naim have put phono's on the CDS3, the folklore is that the DIN sounds better, so there's really been no progress.

In the 80's I liked naim a lot: I thought they were a serious no bullshit outfit, who knocked out a decent amp 32.5/Hicap/250 for a reasonable sum of money (compared to the US behmoth's). The interconnect and speaker cables they offered were sensibly priced and worked well.

In the "new millenium", naim have lost the plot: their flagship pre/power combo is insanely expensive (and somewhat underpowered). They themselves are indulging in the worst kind of bullshit - fraim appears to be engineered to make mana look sane And their cables can be quite pricey - $500 for a "burndy" power interconnect.

naim should get out of the hifi business and focus on their core competancy: Power Supplies.

 

Michael,

Interesting post, to which I would be honoured to reply as a Naim/Linn owner.

To respond to your key statements and questions:
1. I don't seem to EVER remember ridiculing anyone else's kit on this forum, but if I have, please give me a link and I'll apologise

2. Clearly I prefer the Naim solution or I wouldn't have bought it, it's hardly as though I've not listened to other gear. But then in your own thread you state that choice of kit is a question of personal preference, so I'm assuming that I'm allowed to have a preference to.

3. I most certainly have NOT stated that Naim makes the best kit out there. I have on a number of occasions slated Naim speakers, not only here but also on the Naim forums too.
In addition, I seem to remember stating several times that the best CD based system I've heard was actually WMs, with NO Naim gear in sight.


So overall, I feel that you are unfairly branding Naimess within your statement about "ridiculing others who do not tow the Naim line" as your statement was not aimed as "some" Naimees, but clearly at ALL Naimees.

So I would like to make my statement in a little more direct in saying that the most closed minded post within this thread is actually from yourself.

And NO I will NOT accept an attempt at rewording your reply to say that "well maybe not all Naimees are that bad". Frankly I think your statement is just as out of order and as unreasonable as some of the more vehement amongst not only the Naim fraternity, but also within other "brand conscious fanatics".

Can I please ask that you either refrain from your outbursts or at least in future be more even in your criticism of not only Naimess, but also Linneees, MFeess etc etc.

 

Re: Re: An open post to the forum's Naim representatives

Now to call my post "an outburst" Mike, just really demonstrates to me exactly my point, which is sad

Now surely the words "many" and "certain" indicate that I am not tarring all Naim users with the same brush don't they?

With your sensitive feelings in mind, I will in future limit my critisism to any form of absolutism, it's just that one look at the Naim forum will tell you that is where fundamentalism grew up.

Over the years I have come to think of Naim as a UK version of Mcintosh. Both share a loyal base and excellent reputation established through good customer service and relations and exceptional biuld quality. They are institutions, admittedly Naim are only in here the UK.

What most people accept about McIntosh is that, on sonic grounds, you can usually find better for less. I just wish CERTAIN members would think the same way about Salisbury's product, insytead of perpetuating the myth.

 

May as well wade in.

Most people are aware that there is more than one brand of hi-fi and most are aware that quite a lot of it is actually good even if it's not their taste. Me, I've grown up with Naim, I like what it does, a lot, and I'm too lazy (i.e. not into hi-fi enough) to worry if I should have bought something else.

But, and this is the big but, I might just get a litlle defensive when everytime Naim or Salisbury or "a company in the SouthEast" is mentioned someone somewhere (again usually a vociferous minority) will take pot shots as to poor performance, underhand selling practices, crap sound or poor sales or the paper specs aren't as exciting as other brands or whatever has upset them recently.

Now it could be a vicious circle. We defend Naim anticipating attack, you attack Naim because of overly sensitive owners etc etc ad nauseam. The only strange thing is that it does seem to be an anti Naim thing. There isn't the vitriol hurled at Arcam or Tact or Dynavector, it just seems to be a knee jerk reaction when Naim is mentioned.

And one final point Merlin, you've posted quite a bit about Naims finances. What's the fascination, what have you got to prove. If you don't like the kit fine but do you need to prove that your ears are right by proving the company sucks.

Too late, too hungover and tired so sorry if this is overly grouchy. Personnaly I prefer to be here than Pinkfish because it is a nice balance with the Naim forum but I don't want to be continually wary because I have "the wrong "kit.

 

merlin, I hear what you say but I think you're making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill at the moment. AFAICR there hasn't really been any Naim "fundamentalism" in evidence here recently.

Mick was being fairly absolutist about his Garrard 501, but that's not Naim.

Also, I notice that you always manage to get in a plug for SimAudio (your kit) whenever you're having a go at Naim

Michael.

 

Re: Re: Re: An open post to the forum's Naim representatives

I can't help but think that on one hand you're happy to criticse absolutism, and then promptly make a lovely sweeping statement about "usually find better for less".

I can happily assure you that the reason for chosing the kit I have is exactly because I listened to a number of competitors and most certainly didn't find better for less, IN MY OPINION.

If someone else loves Cyrus, Arcam, Sim or whatever it maybe, then good on then. I have no issue with others prefering a different style of presentation to my own tastes, but I would prefer it if people like yourself would cease to tell me that I'm wrong to like what I like.

 

A lot depends on how you calculate the cost of ownership of a audio component. If you walk into a store and walk out with the current brand new expensive flavour of the month product as seen on the cover of your favourite hi-fi mag the chances are you will be burning a hell of a lot of money in a pretty short amount of time. Once the company in question has gone bust (sadly a great many many do) the item will be worth a fraction of its original cost, at best 20-30%. A established company like Naim or McIntosh will give a far better return as the resale will be far higher, thus a far cheaper total cost of ownership.

Many people like myself do things totally differently again; I will never buy new unless I absolutely have to, and I buy very carefully. I have owned many, many second hand Naim amps over the years plus many LP12s etc, all of which made me a decent profit when I sold them. To judge performance purely on new price tags is IMHO pretty naïve, there are far better ways to buy audio equipment - I now actually have a totally free audio system due to this buying strategy, the current kit cost me less than the profit made by selling previous kit on.

I like it here because I don't have to moderate the damn thing!

Tony.

 

Hi Tom,

The purpose of posting the financials was merely to highlight the lack of penetration in overseas markets, as it is perhaps mistakenly thought that Naim competes with the global heavyweights. I am not suggesting the company sucks, it is a highly profitable outfit and as a business is successful.

Why not seeing as every mention of them on PF by Robbo was greeted with the usual distain. Quality kit, no better or worse than a number of competitors, but all those who have heard it seem to like it. Still time to move on.......

 

No one here has "the wrong kit". It's unfortunate that some people's efforts have possibly given this place an anti-Naim reputation - if it's true it would be a shame.

I would argue that the "anti-Naimees" are often as fundamentalist in their knocking of Naim as the Naimees are in their support for it. Why Naim attracts that attention where other brands expensive brands don't I don't know.

Michael.

 

Merlin

I am visiting Robbo this coming saturday to listen to his system. I am taking the wife and if his system sounds better than mine, I will flog it and buy one like his.

So we are all open minded.

What I will say is that to date, I have yet to come across anything that compares to Naim. But that is my opinion and it is down to me how I spend my money.

Regards

Mick

 

Michael

For what it is worth, I do not regard this forum as anti anything.

Everyone has their preferences and these are always subjective. I like the Naim sound but cannot explain why, I just like it. I don't expect everyone to like it, so as long as we all accept that, there should be no problem.

Regards

Mick

 

Tony, we share a similar buying philosophy these days But I must say the used prices on Naim gear in the UK shocks me sometimes. Again, in the US yesterday, a five year old NAP250 went for less than £300, so again, this appears to be a strangely British thing.

 

Michael, I have my own ideas but I hope this thread has not come across as Naim bashing as I have given that up.

Mick, that's exactly how I feel about my system and a fine example of the kind of openess I was hoping for.

BTW, to really form an opinion on the Eclipse/CDS3 comparison, should you not have done it the other way round and taken the CDS3 to Robbo then have a return?