Another pointless Mana debate

I believe that a lot of high-end hi-fi is sold primarily on the looks. The jewellery approach.

The opinions on this forum are from people who are no doubt well-meaning, and most of them have no agenda. There is no substitute for a home demo and I would suggest you find a dealer who is prepared to let you borrow some kit for a week or ten days.

I use active ATC 100 monitors, and I have never heard any speakers which sound better, in fact the vast majority sound a hell of a lot worse. I would recommend them wholeheartedly, they are quite expensive, but a bargain at the same time as you get the amplifier & crossover built-in.

There is a review of the active ATC 150 monitors in "The Collection" (a HFC publication out this month). The reviewer rather liked them. They do make domestic hi-fi speakers sound a bit crap in comparison.

 

James we could never accuse you of buying hifi jewellrey could we?

As to your comments, I was just offering an opinion based on what I heard, but I would always advocate a home demo as an essential part of the buying process, especially for something so expensive, your other comments are as single minded as usual though, and here's me thinking you've mellowed a bit, as for ATC, yes they are nice, but again they are not the be all and end all, and "hifi" speake3rs can and do make them sound crap especially when you consider that the amplification in your speakers is not the best around, if you take the fact that passive 100's would cost around £4k then the £4k they have spent on the active amplification could be bettered by seperate powers IMHO, You also have to remember that hifi is a personal hobby and those that live with a partner have there views to consider as well, lets face it ATC 100's look like PA monitors and we have a hard time as it is convincing said partners that the car priced speakers may be the dogs whotsits but if they are ugly they will not be allowed in the house, without a full scale domestic war.

I also seem to remeber that before you bought your speeks you demo'ed a non mana'd pair and were not that impressed (your words) so did you take a leap of faith that mana would work with them just cause JW had them on Mana? As i see it if mana makes such a difference how did you know that you were gonna like the differences they offered for this speaker with out hearing them on said stands?

BTW when are you free, fancy a sesh, gotta let you see that rush DVD and you could even see what you think of my cans set up.

 

Hi Paul,

Yes it would be good to meet up again, give me a ring.

No, I haven't mellowed re the ATCs. They do things that most speakers cannot even attempt, and if they did attempt those things, they'd lose a drive unit or two. I have never heard ANY domestic loudspeaker system even approach the sophistication, dynamic range and clarity of the ATC actives.

On their factory stands, the ATCs sounded pretty good compared with my Mana-mounted NAP 135s and Epos ES22s, but they weren't in the same league as JW's phase 11 Briks. I thought long and hard about it, nearly backed out of the deal, but Paul Duerden, and others who I trust, persuaded me to try them on Mana. JW brought them up to my place, set them up, and the rest is history. He was prepared to take them away again if I didn't like them.

P.S. I should add that when I heard them on the factory stands at Jack's place, they were fed by a Mark Levinson No 39 CDP/preamp. This is not (IMO) a very good objet, falling firmly into the "jewellery" category.

 

James

I knew you hadn't mellowed re your speaks what I meant was mellowed re your strong opinions, you have to understand that others have different tastes in musical presentations, any way I like d your speaks but I don't think I would set them up the same way as you as to me they don't have the same texture as what i'm getting but this could be the mana effect, Big Tony described the mana effect as bleaching and personally I agree with him, the only thing I prefer from your speakers compared to mine is the low bass, but then your driver is 12" and mine only 8" but as with others things this is only MY opinion, and I know that yours is different, but yer still good company. BTW when you come over don't mention the M word please, I'll give you a ring at home tonight.

Paul

 

Hi Paul,

Don't take this the wrong way, it's meant to be lighthearted...

I know that that is what you think about the ATCs. I mind about as much as someone telling me that their clapped-out Fiesta is better than my BMW. Tony (IMO) doesn't have a clue, but what he does have is a business agenda. Although I haven't heard his system, other trustworthy ears have...not pretty, allegedly.

Speak soon.

 

paul,
it would be a sad day indeed if bub ever did mellow. it would be a bit like osama bin laden saying that america had some good points. only without the dead bodies.
cheers


julian

 

Bub I'm not some willy waving, insecure prat that needs reassurance, and take what you say as your opinion even if you meant is as fact, I like what my system does anbd thats all that matters, I havn't heard Tony's system so can't comment, but I'm sure it sounds good to him, as to wether Tony has a clue or not, my comment was said as when looking for the words to describe what I meant, then what he said kinda described what I heard.

The reason I thought youhad mellowed as there have been a few threads where people have made comments asking about Mana and such and I thought your replies to be well balanced and not with your useuall zeal, glad to see (from your last post) that you haven't changed afterall, we need a nemesis and having discussions like in the past does give a bit of entertianment, keep up the good work.

Ju

 

Paul, everything on the forums is opinion.

I think that quite possibly part of your problem with the sound of my system is that you've only just shelled out megabucks on those ART things and the Bow stuff. In your place I would possibly feel the same way. Brand loyalty is very understandable if you have spent a lot of money. It can be improved though.

I really don't know what you and Big Tony mean by "texture". Do you mean "timbre", or what?

 

James now I know your toungue is definately in yer cheek, besides I'm sure I paid less han you for what i believe to be a superior sound, Maybe its yer 52 but as to texture, kinda hard to put in words, what I mean exactly, I'll try and let you hear what i mean, but of course we are never gonna agree no matter what.

I return one of yer quotes "Brand loyalty is understandable James, if ytou have spent a lot of money, It can be improved though"

 

Bleaching/leeching/removal of trailing note body and most of the music, yep that about covers it. texture removal service plus stunning looks get ****
I believe ATC's are great monitors, nothing more to me they sound better passive (off board active) with decent amps driving them. I believe they did bass as well then

 

This seems to be something that often results from too much global negative feedback. THe plus side of this is often more "boogie factor"
Of course your hifis are in a different league entirely to my impoverished "Jap Crap" so I will bow out at this juncture. Sayonara.

 

Heh heh. If you think that you have a 'superior sound' we will definitely not agree! They are not even in the same league, Paul. You do talk a good game though! As does W_M with his trailing note nonsense.

This is the wonderful thing about audio: you can say any old blox you like and no-one can argue because it's your opinion and that is that. My opinion is that no hi-fi is any great use without Mana, so put that in your pipes.

Why pick on the 52, btw? One of the world's best preamplifiers, by common consent, or am I missing something?

I know that Mana is what you need, there's no argument that your floor is full of bass, or is there?

 

James you might like your system better but as to not being in the same league then I think that's you that's kidding yerself, or did you mean that yours is a few leagues below mine, but you prefer it that way?

The 52 is typical Naim House sound, which I'm sure by common consent, is not for everyone, and yes texture is what you are missing as described above by Tony.

As to my floor resonating with Bass well how will mana stop airborne bass as that is what makes the whole house resonatre as demonstrated, when you were here we did play kinda loud, and I'm sure at more sane levels I can show you what I mean by texture, as to mana, well M aint gonna give on that, so no point even bothering, besides who would you argue with if i bought mana, (everyone else?)


James could you kindly wait till peeps have finished posting before doing any edits, it's another of your annoying habits, Don't you have any clinics today?

 

I think that the point about the 52 is that it doesn't suffer the traditional Naim problems, but there you go.

What if your "texture" was my "overhang/time smear"?

Mana will prevent/ameliorate the bass which is being transferred directly into your floor by your speakers.

You've heard the bass in my room (deeper and louder than in your room), and felt the lack of it in the suspended wooden floor. How do you think my gear can do that? Magic?

 

I'm not denieing the lackof bass in yer floor James but our houses are so different If i removed bass from floor I would still have problem with airborne due to stud partiton walls, as to your question re texture, No I don't think this is what we mean, and if it is then If Mana removes this as well then i'll put up with my bass as it is, as I said I like the way my system sounds, only you think it is lacking, everyone else (whose opinion I trust) seems to think it is great the way it is.

So I propose if you think My system needs mana (when others don't) then I'll let you bring your own mana when you come over, I'm sure I could compromise for a few hours, anything to keep a friend happy.

 

I'm just advising. You would be very surprised indeed at how little airborne bass gets into the house structure if you can stop the direct speaker/floor interaction.

But I won't dismantle my system to prove a point, it's completely up to you. If you are happy with it the way it is, that's OK with me!

 

Ok James asked a fair question
Here is my take on the Texture & Timbre (both could be wrong, however I tink you'll get the jist)
Timbre<> the sounding of instruments and vocals as precieved to be by indivduals reference, IE When comparing drums (rimshots/kick drums/hi-hats) I use my own reference of myself playing a drum kit in a rehearsal room, now this may sound different to some at a concert I agree entirely, I'm within 2/3 of the struck object others maybe 20-50ft or long away so the note has time to form fully.
Vocals correct tonal palette and range, If for example Nora Jones is singing, it should be a female vocalist that covers maybe 3/4 octaves, not a male saprono on speed.
Texture<>Body/solidity of image/presence/ richness of the whole sound, not a thin and veiled presentation thats just quick.
It should give that In the real in the room artist is playing for me sound that you want to reach out an touch, it should extent for the whole audiable frequency spectrum.
Remember when you swopped from the cds2 to the LP12, (which was better) what do you define as the differences there James?

 

I think the differences are very difficult to describe, Tony. I know that my system is one of the most realistic-sounding systems that I have ever heard, i.e. it sounds like the performers are in the room. I put this down to good room acoustics & size, good mains, good kit, and a lot of Mana.

 

Oh yes, willy waving and potential brawl! Can I get involved?

Most monitors are designed to be placed at the height of a mixing desk - not a sofa or floor. Raising the to this height will give the correct spectral balance and reduce floor interaction. Raising them further will reduce floor interaction even further usually making them leaner than intended. It isn't rocket science.

 

I'm glad yer back James was getting kinda quite without our resident "whipping boy"

I'm sure even Penance will remove you from his ignore list soon