Any Watch fans on ZeroGain??

You think that's expensive - check out the starting price of the IWC Grande Complication models:

http://www.blitzwatches.co.uk/products_new.asp?subname=Grande Complication&gsubcat=173&sex=0&type=36

Now, I'm all for a decent timepiece but that is ridiculous - just think what car you could get for that money!

Matt.

 

where I live you could buy a house at those prices..!!

 

As a Breitling owner I must protest - I've always considered them to have a good name (choice of the pilot), be well made, accurate and reliable and not to be ridiculously expensive.

Their prices have shot up since I bought mine 5 or so years back mind - my Wings Auto with leather strap was £1050 back then and they are around the £1400 mark now so, yes, a big hike. When I bought mine I just thought it was a bit more unusual than the common choice of a Seamaster which would have cost about the same.

I still think they look reasonable value i.e. a nice Navitimer or Montbrilliant will cost you less than a steel submariner. And I still think they make some great looking watches (apart from the cheaper Colt models and the ones with the digital readout).

As for Rolex - like 'em or loathe 'em, I'm not sure they can be considered bad value for money as there is a good market for second hand models. What's more, if you were to buy a new Sub today and keep it in good condition for 20 years, chances are you won't lose any money on it.

Matt.

 

Funny that you should compare one waste of money with another :lol:

 

I love watches, wouldn't call myself a collector I only own 2 and with funds the way they are right now it wont be 3 in a hurry...


...Its more likely to be 1
One for everyday (Breitling blackbird) and one for wearing with suits (Rolex 18ct Cellini)

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on Brietling then! Problem is, their watches (chronographs included) use stock, unfinished ETA 2892/Valjoux 7750 movements. The ONLY additive applied is the name etched on the rotor. This is done at ETA (the Ford of ebauche manufacturers).

I've seen £2k Breitlings with *exactly* the same movement finishing as £300 unbranded/white label watches (i.e - none). IMO, this represents very poor vfm. No horological innovation, improvement or adjustments are performed by Breitling. Finishing on the case, dial & bracelet is also very basic.

This is less so the case at IWC (which also uses ETA base calibres), hence why they have a better reputation than Breitling, who would rather spend R&D money on advertsing & sponsorship, (just like Rolex).

There's a reason why none of them have sapphire display-backs!

Hundreds of other brands use the same movements, with higher levels of finishing applied (again, usually done by ETA) at fractions of the price of Breitling

Re Rolex, slow depreciation is just about their only saving grace IMO. But should you really spend £3k+ on a watch if you're the bean-counting type anyway??

Also, your Rolex will also need to be serviced at least 3 times during those 20 years. £300+ each time, depending on the number of complications, so your saving isn't really that great after all

DT

 

Very interesting stuff DT. You clearly know your stuff.

In that case can you give me your view of the Cartier Roadster that I have been considering. Would be good to know that it's not just a pretty case with a very average movement.

Another question - what watch would you buy with £2K- £3K to spend?

It sounds as if you rate Omega very highly by the way. Do they only use their own movements then? I do quite like the look of some of the De Ville models.

Finally, fair comment on the servicing of a Rolex but wouldn't most automatic watches need 2 or 3 services over a 20 year period?

Cheers,

Matt.

 

So DT et al.

Suggestions for everyday watches (not dresss watches)?
<£1000
and
<£2000

 

Interesting all this movement stuff - just been doing some googling and it looks as though the Cartier Roadster uses an ETA movement although apparently they do some work on it - whatever that means.

Also discovered that although they have used various movements in the past (including Zenith), Rolex now make all their own movements in house - don't know if this means they are any good.

Also saw it stated that Omega use/somtimes use ETA movements but then a number of Omegas DO have glass display backs which DT says you wouldn't have with an ETA movement. This is all so confusing.

Starting to wonder if Zenith might be the best bet to guarantee a fine movement.

Matt.

 

Cartier are a little more pro-active in terms of "personalising", adjusting and finishing stock movements. They used to use a lot of Frederic Piguet movements (very highly regarded. Their 2185F chronograph calibre is possibly the best in current production).

They tend to use more ETA/Valjoux movements these days, as F.Piguet are less keen to provide them with ebauches (I think Blancpain kicked up a fuss ).

Until recently, they were one of the very few famous, global brands that actually use quality movements in their entry level watches.

Overall, compared to Brietling/Panerai/Rolex etc, the quality of finish and construction is superior. They look a lot nicer too!

Everyday MECHANICAL watches under £1k that I like:

Omega Seamaster - ultra-ubiquitos, but well designed & finished for the money.
Nomos - Clean Bauhaus design coupled with basic, but nicely finished Pesaux (owned by ETA ) movements at the price. http://www.chronomaster.co.uk/nomos_orion.htm
Oris - Largely unfinished ETA movements, but good VFM. Style not to everyone's taste. Good solid everyday watches though.

Under £2k:

Ulysee Nardin - Marine Chrono etc.
Zenith - Pre-2002 better value than current range. Old Elite series good VFM.
Omega - I think some of their movements at this price incorporate a co-axial escapement, which is a fascinating innovation IMO.
IWC MkXV - A classic that needs no intro. ETA 2892 though

Under £3k:

Jaeger - Ultra-Slim - One of the thinest mechanical watch movements ever made. Stunning engineering from JLC.
Jaeger - Reserve de Marche - Used in steel around £2.5k. Easily the best watch in the world at that price. Hence why I own one :MILD:
Blancpain - Used steel models with calibre 21, 64-1 & 1106 offer almost Patek levels of build & finish at a fraction of the price.
Audemars Piguet - Plenty of early nineties AP's around at bargain prices. JLC calibres & near patek-level finish.

Nah - every 5 years should be fine. They say 2-3 years because its such a nice little revenue stream for them. In reality, a Rolex should be fine for 5 years, even if you wear it every day. Some brands like IWC use brass bushels on pinions, which wear down quicker and need frequent replacement.

The upshot is that they are much easier to replace than ruby, which makes servicing quicker & cheaper for the owner. I get my watches serviced every 7 years, but each one gets little wrist time, and I treat them very gently

They used to use the Zenith el-primero movement, but everything is in-house nowadays. Are they any good? In terms of reliability & accuracy, yes, but ANY quartz movement will blow ANY mechanical movement out of the water in this regard, so its kind of academic . They do have some interesting innovations though:

They are the only watch company in the world that has perfected the mechanisation of the Breguet overcoil (increases consistency of rate and hence, accuracy). Every other firm has to do these by hand, which is highly skilled, very time consuming, and very expensive.

Finishing is very basic at the price, and the movements are made in the China. Once shipped to Switzerland, they are ASSEMBLED, which is enough to get them the "Swiss Made" monicker.

They lobbied the Swiss government very hard to get the law changed in this regard (so did Swatch group, hence why they have "swiss made" on the back!!). Very poor finish on dials/cases/bracelets too

Lol - lots & lots of ETA watches have display backs. Breitling doesn't want you to see the same movement you have in your £500 Oris chrono, in their £3.5k Navitimer!!!

Sorry for the rant

DT

 

I don't know... this forum and particularly DT has a lot to answer for... namely that I now have a JLC Reserve de Marche on my wrist and my bank balance is somewhat lighter!

Stunning watch though - absolutely stunning. Attention to detail is jaw-dropping.

Matt.

p.s. anyone want to buy a Breitling Wings

 

Matt,

Sincere apologies dude - think of it as an heirloom. A work of art. Isn't it just breathtaking? I've had mine about four years now, and there's no such as a quick glance to tell the time!

The circular banding across the movement catches the light beautifully, doesn't it?

BTW, did you suffer any import duty/tax? If not, it was an absolute bargain for a brand new JLC, IMO. Might have to have a gander there myself sometime!

Before you sell your Wings, you should pop the back open to see the difference in finish. You'll see that its a light-year behind the RDM.

Try to post some pictures of it sometime

DT

 

None whatsoever as the guy promised - I wasn't anticpating any anyway as they are shipping from within the EU. They (swissluxurywatches.com) were very good to deal with, answering emails quickly etc. Great service really and the watch was delivered to my door (quickly) and fully insured all for the advertised price.

Not sure how they do them at the price. They are Gibraltar based and mine looks to have been obtained from Spain (Malaga dealer's stamp on the guarantee card. I guess they buy them in fairly large numbers, plus they may be cheaper in Spain anyway.

Definitely a good site to have a browse through now and again.

Matt.

 

Damn difficult to photograph watches - reflections everywhere but here's one of the movement with the rest cropped out.

 

If you want to see some stunning watch photos, head on over to Steve G's website: http://ninanet.net/watches/launchpad.html

Excellent movement photos too. Strongly recommend you look at the following gobsmacking pieces before leaving:

Phillipe Dufour Simplicity
Chopard LUC 1.96
IWC Portofino 5251
Lange Datograph

Just gorgeous

DT

 

My mrs bought herself a Rado something or other while travelling on business, on a whim (since I spend so much on hi-fi she felt entitled to The main reason being she finally saw something she liked the styling of, so had to get it while she had the chance. The main things we like functionally are that the strap never scratches because it is "ceramic" and the face never does because it is "sapphire" IIRC. Are they rated at all, and is there a man's version with similar-ish styling (in the matching tracksuits line of thought)?

 

Sure is:

http://www.rado.com/100/109/734/121.asp

 

Is everyone just being nice and not saying a quartz watch is not the thing to have - even a quartz-mechanical, whatever that is? Are all precision-mechanical watches "U" and electronic watches "non-U" or is it more complicated that that?

 

I think everyone acknowledges that as timekeepers quartz watches beat the pants off mechanical watches. The basis of timekeeping is frequency; all other things being equal, the higher the frequency of the time base, the more accurate the timepiece. No mechanical movement can live with the millions per second of an oscillating quartz crystal.

The pleasure of mechanical watch ownership is in having a piece of fine craftsmanship for its own sake, and not strictly for its function as a timepiece. If I could afford it, I'd be a watch collector too! As the other guys have said, the beauty of some of the movements takes your breath away, especially those with the "Geneva stripes" (machined patterns on the movement plates giving the impression of it being striped).

 

Steve,

Ceramic (zirconium oxide) can be scratched, if enough force is applied. The same also stands for synthetic sapphire. Its very, very resilient, but not impervious. I'm guessing your wife isn't doing much skateboarding these days, its unlikely she'll manage to do any serious harm to it! Anti-reflective coatings on the sapphire are usually more problematic, as they can cause a "rainbow" effect as they start to wear down.

There's nowt wrong with quartz. Its accurate, cheap and reliable. For me (and a great many other collectors) it just doesn't engage on an emotional level. Quartz doesn't "live & breathe" live a mechincal movement does. All of the magic is lost IMO.

For example, compare the "living & breathing" beast that an old steam train is, relative to a modern electric train. I find the former infinitely more fascinating than the later. Something about all that visible kinetic motion that just gets me thinking....

Some companies do fascinating things with quartz movements that I find genuinely fascinating - Seiko in particular are the masters of integrating this new technology into mechanical movements. Check out the Spring Drive on steve's website: http://ninanet.net/watches/others09/Mediums/mspring.html

DT

Just whatever you do, when its time to change the battery, don't give it to those monkeys at Timpsons. You'll get it back in bits!