Audio Research Preamplifiers

I'd be very interested to hear any members views on Audio Research preamplifiers. Seems like they very seldom come up for discussion on the forum. I now have a Krell KSA250 (wonderful) and someone whose opinion I respect keep insisting I listen to an ARC.

 

Lawrence, I thought you were over the moon with the passives sir?
Seems strange to wish to change to valvs at this point?, or is the Krell proving a bit forward?

 

Hi Wadia - sir, yes - over moon - no problems and have done valves in a pre (Eklipse) and I add, moved on - but curious and keep being told that am missing out not hearing an ARC. So - am I, thus the query from the wise and informed on the forum???

No problem with the Krell sounds great as noted in thread, and interestingly way ahead of the new krells - of which i now realise there is a general agreement. The thing is you think you've got it soundng really great and then you find there's another step nearer don't you? Dont start me on how good lathing CDs is! LOL

Of course when I reach Nirvana I'll chuck it all in and buy a wind up gramaphone!

 

larkrise,

krell KSA poweamps and audio research SP preamps used to be a classic, the best money-can-buy combination from 15-20 years ago. all you needed back in the days was a pair of apogee grand or scintillas and that was it.

to be frank i haven't heard any of these combos for quite some time (there's KSA 100 with krell PAM-7 preamp and apogees mini grand near me on sale, i'm tempted to hear it). i've also never heard a ARC preamp outside of such a system but what i can remember is that there was no any sonic signature typical of badly executed valve devices - no lumpy bass, no euphonic colorations in the mids, no roll-offs. all i remember is that these combinations used to have a tremendously fast, open, transparent and larger-than-life sound, in the best sense of US high-end approach before everyone else tried to follow. i really have to think hard how many times in my life i heard something sounding better

they are certainly worth trying although it would be difficult to answer would it be better to stick with something older such as SP-10 or SP-11, or to seek for the new ones. i would tend to expect that some really good new ones certainly sounds better but than i wouldn't overlook a power of synergy between the classic components from the same era - and i am sure that despite ARC having their own line of good power amps, the engineers from minnesota never underestimated popularity of ARC-krell combos and certainly kept that in mind when designed their own stuff. for sure their impedances and sensitivities are a perfect match.

the best you can do, apart from taking one to your home and trying it, would be to ask the similar question over at audio asylum. it would be similar as asking a question about linn/naim at PFM i suppose.

a good reading on older preamps:

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Preamplifiers.html

good luck with your quest. having changed 6 preamps myself for a year or slightly more, i'm fully with you. to be frank, i gave up - EAR 864 perfectly does the job with all its good and bad sides. have you ever tried it in your system? i'm pretty close to that the art of audio pleasure is to learn how to live with compromises in your room, nothing more, nothing less. there is always something that sounds better out there but life is too short to try everything.

PS. if trying ARC, that CJ ART preamps should be added to your list by no means, alternatively CJ premier 17. expensive but serious stuff. also shindo aurieges or monbrison - but i know nothing on their compatibility with krell. they are certainly not designed for that.

 

little discussed but various models pop up regularly on fleabay. I have no idea what the differences are between the models or how they sound, except I think if its an SP designation, its got a phono pre in it and LS, line stage only. Other than that they all seem to look the same, just varying numbers of knobs and switches Prices seem to vary from £450 to just over £1k second hand. Certainly look very well built for that sort of money.

 

i only have a slight feeling that ARCs used to excell in some areas where some of the current top preamps do the job better. i can't imagine any ARC from 15 years ago to beat MFA on transparency.

dynamics could be a different thing.

 

As ever Gordan, indebted for a great response.

Many years ago my first book of short stories was published "Dark Toys and Consumer Goods" (Macmillan) - it won an SF Fantasy Award at the time. The stories are all about consumerism, it was also a response to the Thatcher years. But there's a story in there called Home Improvements about a DIY and Hi Fi fanatic who drives his wife mad and on to more serious actions. The Hi Fi dealer in the story was based on Doug Brady, the famous Liverpool Hi Fi dealer.

I sometimes wonder whether I am sailing close to the wind. . . .

 

i have a ls2 - it was second hand and cost about a 800ukp or may be a little under. it sounds lovely. having said that i really bought it for the chunky knobs in the front and those handles.

 

You seem to swap kit a lot - its usually a sign of disatisfaction and not having really pinned down the cause.

Get rid of that krell as WM says would be a good start. I heard a krell pre power today (along side audio research) driving proacs and it wasnt pretty. Lumpy bumpy shut in proacs driven by edgy harsh metallic sounding amps. Still could have been worse - the krells could have been driving sonus faber!

 

Oh dear I just saw the other thread and realised you own sonus fabers! No offence!

 

If you're after a budget valve pre-amp, try an audio innovations L1 or L2.

Uglier than Audio Research kit, it certainly sounds better (to me) than the two AR pre-amps I've had at home (they were both available second hand in the £700-£1,000 price range)

The build on AR kit however is just superb, beautiful and all round lovely.

Audio Innovations L1/L2's start from about £250, which is just ridiculous frankly.

 

there are different krells. KSA series certainly makes the best and the most neutral sounds krell ever produced. it is a laboratory quality amplifier. the only caveat is the heat it produces. it contributes immensely to drying the electrolitic caps much faster than usual so many pieces around are actually broken. once in order these are really great amps - not many better ones are produces ever since.

krell badly screwed the reputation with some of the more recent series, most notably KAV. their price policy, aimed towards rich sheiks deservers another topic.

also there are different sonus fabers. and not many dynamic speakers can play more impressive than extremas. it is certainly the most unusual speaker that ever came out of the SF factory.

 

anubisgrau is right (go Gordan go!). Certainly not getting rid of either the Krell or the Sonus Faber Extremas - they sound fantastic togethr plus has taken me a while to get here as you have noted! I wouldn't go near a krell pre - they aren't very good and Krell pre's have never come up in the discussion. Re changing kit - well I've come a long way in reaching the sound that I like and pretty much everything is staying put now. (mind you I have been married three times). I'm going to get the Krell serviced by a Krell engineer - expensive but it will be like having a NOS KAS. I wonder if Honey Badger has heard a Krell - a good Krell - not a modern one - driving Extremas, think you'd be surprised!

Infact this brings me on to another point. All my kit is old, interesting that - don't you think? Thanks still for the advice i can take little jibes - grrrrr!

Let's go! As Henry Root would say.

 

Wise words from BBV.

 

I first heard krell about 15 years ago and have heard quite a few models since that time - most recently yesterday and they do seem to share the same character. You might find a quick search on diyaudio quite interesting regarding krell designs. Laboratory quality is quite far from the mark.

I havent heard the extremas so will withold judgement.

I had no idea you owned SF until I saw the other thread - I wasnt taking a crack at you.

 

Share the same character? Just sold a newer Krell and bought an older - reason? Sounded much much better. General views on older versus newer Krells - canbe chalk and cheese! This decison after listening to a number of more modern recent suggestions which I'll keep stum about as i dont want war to break out!

Build - KSA built like the proverbial tank infact one of the best they ever built, period - only problem can be capacitors over a period due to heat as anubisgrau has noted- solution - have rebuild, got the Krell at a price to allow for this

And Honey Badger - I really dont get offended so none taken re my lovely Sonus Faber Extremas!!!!!

 

Speaking of diyaudio, I'm only wondering why Krell KSA amps are along with Pass Labs designs the most popular DIY designs in the world.


Yes I remember some Krell bashing there but it was most of the time inspired with their marketing policies and than simply projected elsewhere. The most serious allegations - that the KSA design is a copy of an early Bryston, just with a higher bias - turned out to be a BS. I'm not defending Krell per se but they do have some great products and it should be always mentioned what exact product was listened to make conclusions. What Krell did after the KSA was a serious step-back.

 

Well pass publish a lot of schematics and krell designs are so basic they are easy to copy.The threads I have in mind deal more with the krell diy and performance assessment.

What is the rest of your system LR? There must be some reason for all this chopping and changing!

 

Actually lets be fair here, not really that much chop and change - jsut trying to be definitive about a preamp which is final step I think. . . the passives tvc etc are superb in my opinion, but I may need bit more drive and for goodness sake I am just plain curious about a partnership Krell/ARC that is almost legendary. The change of amps came with need to drive Extremas and they had to come because of physical room problems with big Martin Logans, simple as that.

Rest of system:

Have NAS Hyperspace turntable with a spacearm - just got a Kontrapunkt B cartridge, audio synthesis transcend and DAX Discrete DAC with ASDL facility which makes significant difference and very happy with these front ends. Cable are solid silver made up for me by a guy in US though have tried Zanash's and very impressed - may return once I know for sure what preamp is sticking. Speaker cables are Goertz.

Forgot to add - Tom Evans Microgroove plus phono

Go on then - which bit is rubbish?!

 

Well I have a ARC SP8 Krell KSA 50 and Apogee Calipers, so I can certainly comment on both amps

As far as my limited knowledge goes, the SP8 is wonderful. Build quality is first class, valve swapping is easy and you can hear the differences between valves, the factory support all the products they have ever made: I 'phoned them up from here in the UK for an instruction manual: no problem.

Maybe on transparency it isn't up to modern standards, as far as rich, tangible sound and soundstage goes: I love it. The phono stage is often cited as being one of the best ever. SP10 is reckoned to be the ultimate ARC phono pre amp, but more expensive and harder on valves. SP8 is easier to live with. Plenty of info on the Audio Asylum...

Like others have said: ARC pre & Krell power go together. The valve pre and s/s power balance each other.