Bake-off Revisited

Last Tuesday saw a return to my house for another bake-off. The old faithful were here Isaac, ChrisPa and SCIDB (Dean) joined by Zanash (Peter) and Chris's son (sorry forgotten his name) with his 17 year old ears!!

Last times hot topic was the NOS and Dac64, this time the merits of cables! Zanash, went to great lengths here and is to be thanked and congratulated.

​

We had a set of 5 identical looking cables all using the same jacket and plugs which the panel didn't get close enough to examine. The quad CDP has 2 outputs which made A/B comparisons instant. It is important to note this was a blind test and wasn't open to discussion, observations (if any) were written down and discussed later. This was our way of keeping it impartial, and stopping the 'I heard x' then the 'me too!' factor. Also no one knew what the cables were made of or even if different until after the listening.

We played 2 tracks with our reference IC these were Damien Rice - cold water (O) and Goldfrapp - lovely head (Feltmountain) then the tracks were played again swapping between the Ref IC and IC A then against B C and D.

The cables were-
Ref = Solid core silver (DNA)
A = Maplins finest, 'shark' screened copper twisted pair
B = Multi strand core, screened PTFE, RGB type
C = Solid core parallel paired (speaker cable)
D = Thermo couple cable - Aluminium signal, Cromium ground

So what happened?
I found out that ZG users can't write very well, and have struggled to read the sheets, thank god forums are not in handwriting!

Cable A was described by one reviewer as 'lacks ambience' and by another as 'less air' and all agreed that the ref was brighter.
Cable B had descriptions of 'smoother' 'less harsh treble' and 'less treble'
Cable C was considered closest to ref by 3 of the 4 'very similar', 'closest to ref' and v close to ref'
Cable D was the least favourite attracting descriptions of 'less detail and separation' and 'muddled'

In each case differences were heard by all, is this mass hysteria, a group aural illusion? I think not, the key isn't that we heard differences but that we each heard THE SAME characteristics, some were very obvious, some (C) were less so. This wasn't to say A or X are the best cables, purely to see if differences could be heard and quantified under a controlled listening environment, it was interesting that although we were pretty much in agreement over the differences individual preference differed between reviewers much in the same way we like different kit.

A final test was done between 2 solid silver DNA's one with silver bullets and one with gold plated copper plugs, the differences were the most subtle of the evening but the decision was unanimous in favour of the bullets however all agreed there was not £70 of difference!

The rest of the night was spent chatting, eating and of course listening to music! Which included a TT kindly brought along by Chris to satisfy my curiosity (thanks again) and although not sounding its best I can understand the attraction to what the sound could be. It was fab to hear the buzzcocks again after so long! And other gems and rarities from Deans vault.

Thanks for the company guys

Rob

 

thanks for the chance to demonstrate the differences cables make.

I was astounded that everyone ...even those not idealy positioned were able to hear even subtle difference. The questionaire method allowed people to write down there opinions without prompting others to follow suit.

I feel this sort of bake off would be useful for some of the more sceptical off the ZG users. Many of the things we heard were clear and obvious....and some were not.

The most intresting aspect was with the solid core copper cable, this was very close to the silver solid core cable used as a refference. It makes you realise how much is down to cable topology rather than actual metalogy and insulation. I need to do some work on this.

On completely different tack. I was able to bring my heavily modded VR70E runing Groove Tube EL34 to originally compare with quads running kt88's. Unfortunately the quads were not at there best. Still the VR70E performed faultlessly and did not disgrace its self...In fact for the cost its truely brillant..the new tubes were nearly the cost of the amp ! You can see the amp on the floor to the right of the brown fronted valve pre. This had just arrived the day before from an ebayer in Hong Kong this was sub £100!....I changed the nasty vol pot to and alps blue. If anyones intrested pm me and I'll give you the ebay details. Sound wise its full and up front but with no loss of detail. It makes my quad77 pre sound really thin and weedy. I just can't get over how cheaply you can get great sound !

 

This bakeoff is certainly very interesting which I've not read before. Would be worth seeing what actually every one wrote in their notes and see whether they are really agreeing with each other as claimed.

 

As I said, though not everyone agreed with each others interpritations, we did all hear the same things. One mans lack of bass is anothers raised treble! If you really want to hear what we heared I can lend you the cables except the refference, which is currently in use elsewhere. If you want a listen pm me.

 

Zanash,
I hope this doesn't come across as rubbishing your article. Many people have been trying to encourage people to try actually try some sort of practical comparison to further this debate beyond the theorising we get for years around hifi forums. From your description this bake off should have the basis to be convincing enough since you agree to try a blind test which appear to have been done well and the switching method are done quickly too. I thought it might give more weight to your article if you give more details to demonstrate that people are recording in their notes similar things. However, in my mind trying to suggest people are indeed describing the same thing by when writing down what they hear as 'lacking in bass' is the same as 'raised treble' is hard to take for sceptics.

It is very kind of you to offer me to listen to these ICs myself but since I can't even hear between freebie red & black IC against many branded versions it would be a waste of your time.

 

I built the cables but didn't write the article ! This was not a blind test as such, the cables were made the same so looks didn't alter peoples perceptions.

thats a very interesting comment you make about the freebie and the branded cables. I'm not saying that your gear is to blame or your hearing, but something is amiss ! These cables [the ones I built] clearly display the various traits found in cable types. The cable used were built to try and highlight these differences not hide them as in many commercial cables. Without actually having a listen to them it is hard for you to appreciate the changes the cables made. Now I've heard people say they can't tell the differences between cables before, this normally means they have not been shown quite what to listen for ! I did a listening session with some work collegues a couple or three years back, none had heard the difference cables make. Once the cables were swaped half heard the change the others need to be shown where the changes were. In the end everyone could hear the change....not that one was any better than the other, they were just different.

As to the percieved changes we heard. If you bring forward the treble in the overal sound, it will sound the same as recessing the bass. This is not the same as when you use a treble or bass control, but more like Quad's tilt control. Three or four members said treble was more prominent and one said the bass had been dropped back. We all heard the same effect, just putting it into words was the problem. This was a repeatable effect, swapping between efference cable and test cable on different tracks. All present heard the changes! Now more intresting was what people thought was the best cable heard, we were split, three liking one, two liking another and one something else. Though everyone agreed that the stranded cables tended to be worse than the solid core.

I really can't see why you wouldn't want to have a listen to the cables for yourself ? Its not going to cost you anything but postage and a little time. Though it's strange a number of other cable sceptics refused to take up my previous offer of a loan cable ..why would that be ? I can think of a number of reasons but .....

Anyway the offer is there just pm me and we can sort something out

 

I think what you people have done was one of the best blind test protocol. You had built 5 cables that looked identical physically. Then let the rest of the group to listen to them without knowing how each was made. The switching was similar to what some of each did previously so I know it works. I used a Karik CDP since it also have 2 analogue outputs but asked some one else to do switching with the preamp remote to do a side by side comparison easily.

BTW what do you mean commercial cables are built to hide the differences?

 

I feel they [commercial cables]tend to go for the same sound, more hifi if you like. I can't understand why ? It's not hard to build a really good cable that stands clear of the general mass market types, even some of the pricier offerings. Though cables are a personal thing you need to hear them in your own system. I feel that many are built as cheaply as possible to max the profits.....I've been told that some makers add 1000% to the material costs. If thats the case if you can take your £200 IC and disecte it down and find the material cost to be pence. You are not going to be able to due much with such materials......
Now there are good cable makers out there too! but it makes you wonder when a home brew cable costing less than £40 is bettering some at ten times the price. The second point is that a commercial cable will not try to provide a too exotic sound that is going to be far from the frame of refference that a possible buyer is used to. I have no problems I build to get the best sound for me, though not to everyones tastes. Where as it would not make commercial sense to do this as they need to sell as widely as possible.

Sounds like you have done similar comparisons with cables !

 

Surely the point of interest is that everbody heard a difference - whether they agreed on which cable was best, or even what the differences were is not really important. Even if they did hear the same differences there is no guarantee that they would express those differences in the same way in their written comments.

 

Once I had the oportunity to observe sensible adults describing in highly flowery language what they heard when asked to listen to the same cable twice I was lost to the dark side of the annoying sceptics.

Since then I notice have also having difficulty hearing huge differences between SS amps within the same kind of spec.

 

May be you could come to a bake off and hear what we have ?

Alternatively if you pm I may have a loan cable if your interested.

 

there are NO difference between cables ???

firstly, let me say, that with 29 years studio and electronics knowledge, that I am not aware of any sonic differences between one set of domestic hi-fi cables, and the next...

especially with regards to ICs, pretty much ANY copper cable, will carry the full signal, with no changes whatsoever...

if u open up a very high end amp, or dac, you will sometimes see that the wires used to carry the signal ( bridge over circuits etc ) are usually VERY THIN...........

Audio note, for example, use very thin wires in thier circuits.........

to know suggest, that a fancy IC can make a difference to a signal, is scientifically incorrect.

neither can ICs tailor or change the sound...........no one has yet designed a cable with built in EQ properties (!)

any copper cable, will work as a IC........the freebie cables that come with gear, are 100% perfect for thier usage....they do NOT restrict or alter the signal.........

at the end of the day, we are talking pennies per metre, for quality copper, and its VERY hard to produce a cable that does not conduct electrons correctly !

as said here, you can pretend to switch cables, on any blind test etc, and u will ALWAYS get 2 sets of reviews....

blind tests are pretty useless with cables, as there is no difference that you will EVER be able to hear, with your ears, between cable A or B etc


A MUCH BETTER test, would be to setup a 3D spectrum analysor, and measure the SINE WAVS at different frequencies

THEN you will have proof of any differences...

if u were to ever try this, you would note, that the sine wavs measure identical, regardless of what IC you use............

copper can conduct eletrons, 100% perfectly, as required by audio equipment....whilst silver may be theoretically superior, any gain, will be well beyond the range that operates in your amp or speakers.....

certainly speakers will NOT be able to convey, any such minute differences in so called different IC tests..........

then we have the problem of memory retention..........as humans, we are not able to store an exact audio image, of what we just heard.............u can will NEVER be able to describe minute differences, as our ears and memories, are just not precise enough, or can store the memory accurately enough............

I still, to this day, am amazed, when I see cables being sold for 100s of pounds, that offer no difference to the freebie sets....

at the end of the day, people are buying these things, because it makes them feel good, pride of ownership

no other reason............it would take a very ignorant man, to believe a $500 IC is better than a $10 IC..........

someone who has absoultely no knowledge of electronics, but has a big wallet !

ie : the perfect customer............

 

Total and utter twaddle.....remember you weren't there so don't tell us what we did and didn't experience. Sorry but my 35yrs in hifi design building testing ..never sales, seems to have been more sonically profitable.

Maybe we were all mass halucinating at the time, but the sonic charactor of all the test cables was evident to all listeners without discussion, we have the notes and comments that people made at the time. .....If you don't believe me I'd be willing to loan you a cable to demonstrate the effect. pm me

As to you test suggestions ...some have merit, but this bake off was a straight music evening .....!

 

I must admit, it would be 'interesting' for your explanation, as to HOW one set of ICs can sound different to another ?

I mean, how is this actually possible ?

electrons arent fussy about what brand of cable they travel along, all they need is a good conductive material, like copper.

cheap copper, and magical , pure copper, reproduce the entire signal, at audio frequencies, identically.......

can u actually provide a scientific theory, as to how your results are possible ?

also, why do people go to all the trouble, of a-b tests, expensive exotic hi fi gear,

yet NEVER , does anyone actually use scientific tools, ( e.g. spectrum analysor ) to actually measure the output ?

hmmmm..........

 

boogs,
this is perhaps one of the most contentious issues in hi-fi. the objectivist vs subjectivist debate will continue to rage for many years i suspect.
from the bakeoff report, on the day, a difference was heard between cables, what the mechanism(s) are behind these differences is not for laymen to say. as for saying 'if you can;t explain it, you can;t hear it' well i disagree as that would lead to a static knowledgebase.

you stated in your first post that it's impossible for a cable to act as an e/q - i bet zanash could make you a cable that rolls off bass or treble in a measurable way - most cables have resistance and capacitance, by manipulating this in the construction of the cable i'm sure this could be done.

it would be useful to know what the mechanism is behind these percieved differences whether it's placebo, some yet not understood electrical property or pixies, as then it could be taken into account during the design process rather than the hit and miss guestimation that it seems to be at present.

welcome to the forum by the way.
cheers


julian

 

In essence all a cable is is a filter.........

the best cables filter least, the worst will cause roll off at various freq.s removing or masking fine detail.

As I still have not being taken up on my offer ...I suspect that we have someone who has no interest in music reproduction or getting the most from there system [as yet unnamed].

I do think that boogs is a little too forthright in his opinions for a first post ! Most people say hello in the main section first before they lumber about telling people what they can and can't hear....when they weren't even present !

 

Boogs, you are very wrong.

I, like many others, have recently made a few changes to my system's cables, and the overall sound is without a doubt more detailed, seperated, and cleaner.

When my mate came round to try a few new cables, we decided out of interest to try a pair of freebie horrible ICs instead of my good quality cables, and the differences were vast, more so than I could have imagined. The overall sound was dull, lifeless, grinding, fatiguing, and there was severe lack of detail.

No, I cant provide any scientific evidence, I am not interested. All I am interested in is getting the potential from my system.

 

the TRUTH about cables......

dont just take my word for it, that there are NO audible differences between ANY ICs or speaker cable, but rather read this;



http://sound.westhost.com/madashell.htm


that guy has decades of audio circuit design and manufacturer......he is paid for desigining circuits, and knows pretty much all there is to know ( scientifically ) about audio design and components......

if HE says there is no difference, scienticially or otherwise, how can a bunch of people, reading the lies in hi fi mags, SAY OTHERWISE ?

can anyone prove their claims ? why not measure the results on a 3D spectrum analysor ?

why dont hi fi mags make scientific measurements on cables ?

ONLY ONE reason, because they would PROVE there are no difference...

and thats the LAST thing they want, whilst generated advertising revenue........

the truth is OUT THERE...........

just dont keep your heads buried in the sand.

 

Rather than taking anyone else's word for it or not, why not have a listen and make your own decision that is correct for you. Try not to worry about what other people do with their money. For example, some people like to buy a new car every three years, which I think is an absurd waste of money, but if it makes them happy, fair play.

I think that you will find plenty of well-respected designers who do "believe" in cables making a difference, even if they themselves have no vested interest (ie they do not produce cables themselves).

Plus, if you go to the link you posted, and read the "funny cable story", you'll see that he says:

That rather suggests that he accepts that there ARE differences, does it not?

BTW, no one knows everything there is to know about designing audio circuits. Trust me on that.