Balanced Line

Balanced outputs are often less noisy because of using two op-amps to drive them and giving a higher signal level, producing a -6dB reduction in noise floor comparative to using one op-amp.

 

Please note I said balanced line = line level. If a signal doesn't reference to something there is no signal.

 

The reference is the other signal in balanced operation be that at line, mic or whatever level, not gnd.

 

You said the signal wasn't referenced!!!!

 

Now who is playing games. I meant not referenced to ground. Balanced operation requires two conductors not three, word games don't avoid that engineering fact.

 

Then you try sending a signal down 50ft of cable without a screen and ground.

 

Seems to work on my phone line OK?

Might I suggest you read up about balanced operation as you clearly do not fully understand what it is.

 

Yep, that what he said.

"Not . . . referenced to ground."

Me? Applied Physics and electronics 40 years ago at Durham University.

 

So why does every *audio* cable used in studios and PA rigs have two cores and a screen and the screen is earthed.

 

To stop external noise getting into the signal but it has nothing to do with balanced operation.

 

Is there any evidence that a pair of conductors in a screen for an unbalanced cable is any better than a single conductor in screen?

 

More epic facepalm activity from richard once again,.

 

I suspect an apology for the error will not be forthcoming or an admission that he was wrong either.

 

Twin conductors (signal and earth) surrounded by a screen should have greater immunity to RF noise. Does that mean it will sound better, I don't know but it will mean it has less RF noise than a cable without a screen.

 

Per usual you two are getting into personal game playing. The thread no longer serves an information process, it serves your desire for conflict

1/ I admit I didn't realise a cartridge would naturally balance, or that other manufacturers were using that property, which I have admitted. To want an apology for that is game playing.

2/ I stated that a signal doesn't exist unless it references something, you said in your post it is not referenced to earth. I did not say it didn't reference the other leg, what is there to apologise for.

3/ Without a screen a lead is wide open to RF pick up whether it is two cables or one balanced or not, it then relies on the differential circuit to null it, some of them don't which is why a cable screen in *all* pro application is normal and considered a necessity.

end of.

 

That is surely the important element in all of this.

It is a trade-off.

What you have to consider is the following:

Low noise, low hum, low distortion, high input margin single ended phono stages exist and have done for many years. Vinyl as a source has a very high noise floor and dynamic range is limited to around 50db. Distortion barely gets better than 1% and is considerably higher at HF - going into double figures. Improving the front end interface performance by a dB or two is entirely moot. As mentioned above, you also risk more self noise from the stage so might actually end up in a worse position.

When it comes to line level connections it is difficult to see any benefit unless using long cables.

In short, other than in certain very specific instances it does little to enhance performance and can actually make it worse.

 

1/ I dont want an apology I merely said one would not be forthcoming.
2/ Re read the thread.
3/ You are correct, no screen means more noise. However the fact remains that a balanced connection needs two wires and not three as you stated.

I would suggest that due to the rather 'robust' posting style you employ and the fact you were in error people might take things you say in future with a pinch of salt. A more 'relaxed' posting style might be in order. Just some advice to which you can apply the term 'marmite'.

 

Richard I have delted your last post as its way out of order.

What Andrew makes and how he sells it has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

 

He is trying to assassinate my character, so he got some back, tit for tat, which is my usual reaction to him. You remove one side and all you leave is his tit, or more applicable his tat unchallenged.

 

Oh dear!