Bartlet or Blair?

Being of a "certain age" and having socialist tendings I do feel a bit guilty about wishing that I could vote for Bartlet rather than Blair, am I alone feeling this way?

Are TB's ten points enough to get TB, New Labour or The Labour Party elected again?

 

No, you're not alone. Bartlet would get my vote (despite the fact that I tend not to tend towards socialism).

As for TB's 10, I think they're almost irrelevant. He'll get back in whatever.

 

That's such a depressing thought i.e. that a party who have wasted and continue to waste so much public money (and are partly responsible for the pensions crisis) are going to waltz back into power. I fear all we can hope for is a narrower majority this time.

God I hate New Labour and all they stand for - at least you knew where you were with old Labour!

And don't the Tories need a kick up the arse - get rid of Howard (too many links to the past) and get someone younger in place - Fox would be my choice.

I can barely bring myself to mention the Lib Dems other than to voice my fear that if they keep saying they are the main opposition party people might actually start to believe them.

Matt.

 

I quite admired the scottish nationalist party chap who publically called Blair a liar, and accused him of deliberately misleading parliament. He was also calling for further and more independant investigation into the above.

Its so refreshing when politicians arent afraid to say what they feel, its almost unheard of!

Nice brass ones!

From an alternative perspective it was interesting to hear Bono praise Blair/Browns contribution to aid in the third world. If the Labour party has been generous here, for me that makes up a lot of ground.

(n.b. Mike let me know if this broaches forum O.P)

 

What's a "certain age" ?

 

From the Bartlet link

 

Oh dear - another politics thread which is bound to upset me (as the majority of members show themselves to be extreme right wingers ) but I don't see anything that breaches the forum AUP....yet.

I'm not a big fan of Blair but New Labour is the only credible party in the UK at the moment. The Tories are a disaster area and, thankfully, currently unelectable. If you think New Labour is bad then the Tories can only be 10 times worse. I like a lot of Lib Dem policies and only wish that they were the main opposition party but it isn't going to happen. I'll be voting Labour again at the next election, partly for tactical reasons. The constituency where my vote counts in Hammersmith & Fulham (the last place I lived in the UK) and that's a narrow Labour lead with the Tories in 2nd so voting Lib Dem would only help the Tories which unacceptable.

As for Bartlet - if only we could get a US president like him. Alas, that is unlikely.

Michael.

 

I’m not an extreme right winger Michael – I just believe the Government should tax people less (and spend the money gathered more efficiently) and let people decide what they want to spend their own money on.

From what I have seen, pre-New Labour taxes were lower and public services weren’t very good – post New Labour taxes have shot up and services…. still aren’t very good. If the extra billions raised had been used almost exclusively to provide thousands more police, doctors, nurses etc. (i.e. really useful people) then fair enough but far too much of it, IMO, has been used recruiting thousands of civil servants (to deal with the extra bureaucracy/red tape) and, no doubt, a whole army of community liaison officers, transport co-ordinators and counsellors.

Browns raid on pensions funds of £5bn per year (almost £30bn taken since Labour came to power) is absolutely scandalous (makes Maxwell look like a loveable rogue) and I’m astonished it’s taken this long for people to really notice what an evil and stupid stealth tax this is. The pensions crisis is bad enough without Brown’s thieving! To make matters worse, whilst the majority of tax payers haven’t a hope in hell of getting into a lucrative final salary scheme these days, Government workers of course still enjoy this privilege thanks by and large to the hard pressed tax payer (who, perversely, can’t afford to fund his own pension properly but is forced to fund that of the government worker).

To me, although New Labour have had a few successes, they have generally failed massively and, thankfully, can no longer blame the previous Government – they’ve had long enough to sort it out but they haven’t managed it. They have also been blatantly deceitful – ‘We will not introduce top up fees’ they said and then did just that! Mind you, had they not embarked upon this barmy idea to get everyone who can do joined up writing into University (whilst the country is crying out for plumbers) then perhaps there wouldn’t be so much of a funding crisis.

Their hypocrisy sickens me – Comprehensive schools are fine for everyone – oh, but they put their own kids into better schools. No-one should own more than one home said Meacher – oh, but he and his wife own several. Share ownership is evil but then the late Donald Dewar was found to have a fair amount of them in his estate. Do as we say not as we do!

They can also thank their lucky stars that they have Blair and Brown because if you take those two away then, other than two or three other semi-talented individuals, they have no-one and would be far less electable.

I also don’t think we should be thankful that the Tories are unelectable – all this means is that we end up with a Government with a huge majority and that’s unhealthy regardless of who is in power. The Tories need to go back to basics and think about what they stand for – hopefully, small efficient government with minimal interference – lower taxes, lower spending – trust the people to decide how best to spend their money. Let doctors run hospitals, head teachers run schools – the people doing the jobs know best how to resolve the problems so let them get on with it rather than sticking your noses in and coming up with a new set of targets/tables every 5 minutes.

The Lib dems are at best comical and at worst dangerous – from what I have seen of their policies they would sign us up to the Euro with no referendum, be soft on crime/drugs and raise taxes substantially – yeah great, just what we need and exactly what the people of the UK want! I don’t think. If they were the main opposition party then god help us – a choice of the moderate left and the loony left – what sort of choice is that.

Incidentally, if you’re based in Portugal Michael, why are you voting in the UK?

 

I had hoped to keep this to contrasting and comparing the fictonal Bartlet and the non-fictional Blair plus a little Allison Janney fan worship. Given a chance I to would vote for Bartlet but as Michael says "Alas, that is unlikely".

 

Yes, great. I'd vote for that. No, I'm not kidding.

Because I'm a citizen of the UK and not (yet) of Portugal. The way the rules work is that you vote in the country in which you have citizenship, not the one where you live. I'd rather vote in Portugal, afterall, it's of much more relevance to me, but until I get my citizenship I can't. I can vote in local elections and European elections here but not general elections. Conversely I can vote in a general election in the UK but not in European or local elections.

Even when I get my Portuguese citizenship I'll have dual nationality so I'll be able to continue to vote as an overseas voter in the UK until 15 years after I left the UK.

Oh, and before anyone comments about me voting to raise other people's taxes: even though I live in Portugal I'm still employed by a UK based company and pay UK income tax (which I can then offset against the (higher) income tax I have to pay here).

Michael.

 

Just because you're taking out Portugese citizenship is no reason to screw up the UK for the rest of us.

 

Steve, see the last paragraph of my post. btw, I edited your quote of Matt F to correctly reflect what I said I'd vote for. Matt F believes the Lib Dems would "soft on crime" - clearly no one would vote to be "soft on crime" but I don't believe the Lib Dems would be soft on crime. If they managed to reduce the gaping inequality in the UK then they'd most likely reduce crime as the primary driver for most crime is poverty and inequality.

Michael.

 

I thought the primary driver for most crime was drug addiction e.g. the only way an addict can pay for his/her next fix is to nick something.

Matt.

 

Michael, thanks for editing the quote.

Actually, the crime thing doesn't bother me as my view is that all three parties are equally clueless when it comes to tackling it.

It's true that I'm less than keen on the kind of 'tax and spend' that the Lib Dems are planning. However, what I really object to is the Lib Dem policy on the corrupt, high-paying-jobs-for-the-boys-and-their-wives, over-bureaucratic, undemocratic f*ck-up that is the EEC.

"they would sign us up to the Euro with no referendum" - If that's true they'll have a hell of a fight on their hands, if they ever get elected.

 

How many wealthy (or even merely "comfortable") people are:
a) drug addicts
b) steal in order to finance their habit

Not many I'll wager. Drug addiction is generally a result of poverty (escapism from a life with no future) and that, indirectly, leads to crime. The primary factor is still poverty.

Michael.

 

What are Labour policies to combat poverty?

Paul

 

Hi Michaelab,

I think you will find quite a good few. You become a burden to society if you can't afford your fix of any drug. I know a number of well healed people who sample the delights of various items. They can afford their fix & get good quality samples of it. Because they have can afford their fix when they want, they are not always a problem to anyone as a rule.

If you are addicted to something you will do anything for your fix. If the money is tight you will consider stealing. Also when you are desperate you will take any old 'shit' to feed your cravings. This is when dealers can sell addicts any old rubbish & make a killing. The stuff the addicts can take doesn't satisfy the urge & they want more.

An addict will steal if he or she can't get their fix by other means.

This is not fully the case. There are people who use drugs for escapism but a number of these people are not bottom of the pile. People 'escape' from different things for different reasons. These can include from family problems, money problem, social problems, work problems, peer preasure or just because they can. People take drugs also just because they like the effect.

Drug addiction is problem that effects the whole of society. I do agree that a number of crimes are drug related and if these people were not addicted they wouldn't do the crimes. Better off addicts don't always need to steal.

SCIDB

 

OK Dean, you make some good points but I would say there are proportionally much fewer wealthy people who are drug addicts. Celebs and the city traders are something of an exception, and even they rarely become seriously addicted. And anyway, wealthy people generally don't need to steal to get a fix so in that case drugs is not a cause of crime. It's a cause of crime amongst poor people, precisely because they are poor and can't afford to feed their habit so my point about poverty being the driver for most crime stands.

Paul - did I say Labour had any policies to combat poverty? As it happens, I'm sure they have (or believe they have) but I can't be bothered to look them up.

Michael.

 

When I wrote Labour I meant Lib Dem....

Paul

 

Many of the Lib Dem policies are about reducing inequality and combating poverty, not just in the UK but throughout the world. Here is just the first policy paper I found when browsing their site.

I'm not going to get into a detailed argument about them as that would be pointless and neither side would gain anything. It's clear your views on how to combat poverty (assuming you think it's even a good thing) would differ radically from mine.

Getting back to what was being discussed earlier, looks like people may not be happy with New Labour but they're not turning to the Tories as an alternative if the Hartlepool by-election is anything to go by. 19% swing from Labour to the Lib Dems and the Tories pushed into an embarassing 4th place behind the UKIP .

Michael.