Bass - are we deluded?

[Active Hiatus]

This week I saw Capercaillie (a celtic folk/rock band) at the local concert venue and then went to Glyndebourne for a performance of Rossini's La Cenerentolla. The first concert was amplified, the second not. The difference was remarkable. At the first there was bass; bass on everything including cymbals, guitars and Karen Mattheson's voice which is a very pure soprano. The second took place in an opera house which is fortunate to have accoustics which are world class. What was noticeable was the lack of bass weight. There was bass but natural & balanced. How could it be other?

I got to wondering, as you do, whether our search for bass reproduction in hi-fi is based on some unrealistic expectations. The sound engineer at the Capercaillie obviously felt that he needed to enhance the bass to make the concert rock. Is it that we naturally crave that in our systems? Perhaps we have listened to too much amplified music and not enough music "au naturel" that we crave something that is unbalanced?

I then went to a local Operatic Society performance of "Fiddler on the Roof" where the orchestra was playing with out aid but all the singers were mic'ed up. Here the difference was very noticable. The bass support was there in the voices but not in the instruments.

I know we are chasing a dream but perhaps the dream isn't actually as we imagine.

 

[ditton]

good post. a good sub has little discenible bass.

 

[alanbeeb]

I used to go to a lot of orchestral concerts - unamplified - and one thing that I always noticed when coming home to listen to my hifi was how much less of the double basses I heard at home, and that bass drums are much more visceral live than on my hifi. I think there is a lot of bass content in unamplified Classical music.

Another thing I have noticed over the years with many changes of equipment and speakers, is that small speakers, no matter how small the room, cannot do justice to big orchestral music. Smaller scale music - string quartets, solo piano etc all very possible on small speakers though, even though piano and cello often reach right down to very low frequencies.

 

[titian]

I got to wondering, as you do, whether our search for bass reproduction in hi-fi is based on some unrealistic expectations.

I know we are chasing a dream but perhaps the dream isn't actually as we imagine.

,
This isn't only limited to bass. In general everyone has a reference. This could be their own feelings (what they believe, what is right) or it could be "what exactly is on the soundtrack" (here comes then the technical aspects such as linear frequencies and so on), or live experiences / concerts.
What is true for someone isn't for others. Therefore personal affirmations that this is right, coherent, natural and all those great words, which have psychological effects on other people, don't have really any value nor sense except for the person who uses those words.

 

[Saab]

I listen to a lot of live acoustic material,and my HIFI can reproduce that easier that full orchestral pieces,because my gear isn't good enough.The complexities of big pieces need big gear imo,I've only ever really enjoyed this music at shows or in dem rooms with gear considerably better than mine.

So no,we aren't deluded,unless you listen at home to predominantly acoustic material,as i do.So match your gear to your tastes would be my view.Its why I do'nt get on with BW,to much cloured bass at my budget.

 

[technobear]

I used to go to a lot of orchestral concerts - unamplified - and one thing that I always noticed when coming home to listen to my hifi was how much less of the double basses I heard at home, and that bass drums are much more visceral live than on my hifi.

This is perhaps down to the nature of domestic living rooms. They are too small so you get lots of standing waves in the bass region with consequent peaks and dips in the response and too much decay/reverb/echo.

 

[Garmt]

This is perhaps down to the nature of domestic living rooms. They are too small so you get lots of standing waves in the bass region with consequent peaks and dips in the response and too much decay/reverb/echo.

Nothing a 2.2 system from TacT/Lyngdorf cannot cure... :MILD:

 

[Uncle Ants]

You may well be right when it comes to acoustic music, either large or small scale.

On the other hand, I went to see Wilko Johnson at the Rescue Rooms last week. The bassist was Norman Watroy (used to play bass for the Blockheads). I was actually thinking that yes maybe we are deluded. It was absolutely fantastic, but couldn't help thinking there's no way you could reproduce THIS in the home ... and you would probably be insane to want to.

Proper, full on, realistic rock bass in the home? I'm not sure its possible.

 

[Stereo Mic]

Nothing a 2.2 system from TacT/Lyngdorf cannot cure... :MILD:

Given enough power of course or very efficient loudspeakers.

 

[Garmt]

Given enough power of course or very efficient loudspeakers.

The woofers are > 100 dB and can be driven by a 175W SDA. Because they handle all bass, the remaining monitors can be driven by 200W and will have massive headroom, because most energy is in the bass.

I heard a drummer at full force on the system and it didn't even flinch! My eyelids did however... :JPS:

 

[leonard smalls]

On the other hand, I went to see Wilko Johnson at the Rescue Rooms last week. The bassist was Norman Watroy (used to play bass for the Blockheads). I was actually thinking that yes maybe we are deluded. It was absolutely fantastic, but couldn't help thinking there's no way you could reproduce THIS in the home ... and you would probably be insane to want to.

Proper, full on, realistic rock bass in the home? I'm not sure its possible.

Norman's the man.. Best bass player in Britain, I reckon!
My goal in putting together a hifi was to make bass guitar sound like my 2x300w Marshall does.
Nearly there...

 

[Uncle Ants]

Norman's the man.. Best bass player in Britain, I reckon!
My goal in putting together a hifi was to make bass guitar sound like my 2x300w Marshall does.
Nearly there...

Aha yes indeed But on the other hand with reference to recent threads on room acoustics - for this to work you would somehow need to replicate the acoustic of a 200x80x50 foot room stuffed to the gills with several hundred drunken music fans and a bar

PS. Without adoubt one of the best bass players ever ... one of the ugliest and sweatiest too, but that's another matter.

 

[Active Hiatus]

I think my original point is not about our equipment but the problems concerning our perceptions. The issue of reproducing the acoustics of one room in another is, as Uncle Ants says, just one of many such problems. The accoustic verse amplified is another. Then of course our preferences and perceptions play havoc with any attempt at realism. These issues apply to the recording of music as well as its reproduction.

 

[leonard smalls]

PS. ... one of the ugliest and sweatiest too, but that's another matter.

Why do Norman and Wilko still wear those black nylon shirts?
I'm sure Trinny and Susannah would have something to say

And I have no problem at all recreating the sound of a load of drunks in the room..

And as for live gig sound, how rare is it to actually get good sound in yer average venue? I barely knew that it was possible for live amplified sound to be good (apart from 1 Kraftwerk gig) until I went to the Jazz Cafe!
And don't even get me started on stadium sound..

 

[Uncle Ants]

Why do Norman and Wilko still wear those black nylon shirts?
I'm sure Trinny and Susannah would have something to say

And I have no problem at all recreating the sound of a load of drunks in the room..

And as for live gig sound, how rare is it to actually get good sound in yer average venue? I barely knew that it was possible for live amplified sound to be good (apart from 1 Kraftwerk gig) until I went to the Jazz Cafe!
And don't even get me started on stadium sound..

The black nylon shirt thing is one of life's mysteries along with the "how on earth does Wilko appear to be playing rhythm guitar but sound like a rhythm guitarist and a lead guitarist at the same time (and what's that autistic across and back the stage thing he does all about?)?" question. I'm not a guitarist, maybe the answer is obvious to a guitarist (the rhythm/lead part of the question, not the silly walk part)

Gig acoustics. Mostly awful true, but some real standouts and when its good its truly awesome. Rescue Rooms are actually very good for this, ditto Jazz Cafe (we saw Roger McGuinn there a few years back and I spent the evening completely slack jawed). Rock City truly stinks though. Like listening to one of those awful subwoofered up cruise mobiles from the outside.