Bel Canto

Advice needed over 'ere-vo...

http://naim-audio.infopop.net/1/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=67019385&f=48019385&m=656106213

 

Oh dear - now some joker over there is accusing the eVo of 'lacking in timing a bit'!

Come on Tone - time to get over there and lay down the facts.

Matt.

 

It seemed like a perfectly fair comment to me.

He pointed out perceived strengths and weaknesses and expressed a preference in a very nice way?

 

I just thought it was a typical thing for a Naimy to say i.e. if it's not Naim then it couldn't possibly 'time' as well as a Naim.

I'm also not convinced how much an amp can affect timing - I mean, if it's playing flat and clean etc. Perhaps Naim amps over-emphasize certain parts of the frequency range in order to appear to 'time' better? And don't their CD players play a smidgen faster than real time in order to 'drive' the music along better or is that just a myth.

Don't get me wrong - I've heard a hicapped CD5 (playing through non Naim amps admittedly) and it was very nice indeed. I just think they're a bit blinkered at times over there e.g. they think the world of subwoofers starts with an 'R' and ends with an 'L' and that's it - any other options are obviously inferior.

Matt.

 

Fair point Matt.

We're all blinkered by our own preferences though. I fully acknowledge that my love affair with valve amplifiers skews my views and opinions towards them, and blinkers my views on other amps.

''All things are true, from a certain perspective''
Obi Wan Kenobe

hehehe cant believe Im quoting star wars

 

Matt,

Why is the poster on the Naim Forum a joker? Timing means different things to different people. He prefers his in a different way. I sometimes can't help feeling that there is too much hype surrounding these digital amplifiers and its good to get another viewpoint, for a change. I have heard the Bel Canto 200.2 (old style) & the Evo 2 power amps and the Evo 2i integrated and not once did I think I was listening to a valve amp as many commentators would have you believe. Sure the midrange was better than that presented by many sterile sounding solid-state amplifiers but in comparison to many tube amps, like the Graaf GM50B or even the likes of Karan Acoustics solid-state amplifiers, the midrange of the Bel Canto sounds grainy and a touch recessed. In no way did it sound like a valve amp to my ears and if I were to use one of the Bel Cantos, then it would either be with a tube preamp or being fed directly from a tube CD player like the Audio Aero Capitole MkII. I will not use them with a solid-state preamp. I haven't heard the Evo 4 or Evo 6 as yet so I can't comment but I don't think that their sound is too dissimilar to that of the lesser sibblings in the Bel Canto family or is it?

At their current second-hand prices, ( which is where they should be selling brand new anyway, as I feel they are seriously overpriced given the technology involved), they represent a good buy over similarly priced solid-state amps. Right now, in the U.S., a 'sale' is on with these amps as nearly new examples are changing hands at very wallet-friendly prices. At those prices, they represent a good buy but are not the be all & end all of amplifiers. FWIW, I will choose tube amps or Karan Acoustics (Class K ) amps, (although much more expensive), over any of these digital amps. I think the technology is still a work-in-progress but it has potential.

Caveat: The above comments are in my own opinion and based on my preferred music and presentation so other peoples' experiences may vary.



Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

Only a touch recessed! When I tried an Evo2 last year, I found that it did bass and treble exceptionally well, but IMO, was let down by it's midrange imbalance. I can't see how any naimie would like the Evos because the difference is chalk n' cheese

 

Interesting comments guys.

What transformer based mains treatments were you using with the BC's when you "trialled" them?

 

Laurie – maybe I’ve misunderstood – my impression was that accusing a Bel canto of having timing shortcomings is the same as levelling the same comments at a Naim amp – and I would wager that if I posted on the Naim forum that my opinion is that Naim amps/gear lacks timing I would come in for a bit of stick.

I have to be a little careful as, other than my brief audition of the eVo2 prior to purchase, I haven’t a lot of experience of it because my new system isn’t up and running. However, when Stereo Times have it as their reference amp and say that few amps (at any price) and fewer still at its list price can compete with it then I tend to get suspicious of people questioning things like it’s ability to time.

As for timing itself – that’s a good question. To me, for something to time properly it has to reproduce the sound with the same speed/rhythm as the original performance – of course you then run into the problem of not knowing what the original performance sounded like. You kind of get into the accuracy versus musicality argument but I guess I’m saying that if an amp reproduces a signal accurately/cleanly then it should time properly. Some gear may give a false impression of good timing for one reason or another – and people may like this ‘fast/rhythmic’ presentation but that doesn’t mean it times better than an amp that is reproducing the sound more faithfully/accurately.

On the value side – again I’d go back to the Stereo Times view on what else there is to touch it at the list price. On top of this you have the likes of WM saying the eVo comfortably outperforms the Bryston power amps (I guess Lowrider would go along with this having made the change) and the Brystons are of a similar price to the Bel Canto’s are they not? Second hand they start to look like seriously good value – I could, and was considering, going for something like a Quad 909 (£900 new) to accompany my (soon to be acquired Quad 99 CD-P) but for a few hundred more I picked up an eVo2 – time will tell but I think I made the right choice.

Matt.

 

Transformer based mains treatment

None, only tried different power cables. Is transformer based mains treatment a prerequisite for using BC amps? A Shunyata Hydra+cable costs as much as an Evo2

 

If the BC E4 has any short comings timing isn't one of them

 

Yes it is. Hydra is not transformer based.

 

Oh please! Transformer based mains treatment is not a pre-requisite for any hifi gear . If you're worried grivois, try it with and without and make your own conclusions. I've heard two different BCs with and without mains treatment (transformer based and cable based) and the difference, if any, was negligible.

Michael.

 

I agree 100%, with lawrie I,ve used a benchmark DAC1 before the AA, the later is far more agreeable to my ears,vocals are the most noticable area of improvement, that said either benchmark & Belcanto are both stunning bit's of kit,certainly would wake up a system requiring extra detail and life.

would take care though if anything bright side of neutral is not your thing.

Belcanto Evo 4 is hugely powerful, but it's presentation suit's Rock more imo
great amp, well over priced @£4K though

 

Transformer based mains conditioning

Merlin,
No trannies! What's in that big box then? Could you please suggest a suitable make/model?

 

It is just a myth. I've owned two Naim CD players and borrowed a third.

I also used to own a Rega P25 and sometimes I'd put the same track on vinyl and on CD simultaneously. Switching between the two there was no discernable variation in pitch or tempo whatsoever. Timing is relative so it would be pointless speeding things up in an attempt to make it better.

 

But a Bryston 3B SST is £1900 and you'd need two of them to give you equal power/channels to an eVo4. If the eVo is overpriced than I guess a hell of a lot of other gear is too.

I suppose the question is - if you bridged an eVo4 i.e. ran it in stereo - what amp would outperform it for that kind of money?

Matt.

 

Matt,

My name is spelt Lawrie not Laurie. Anyway, my point was that Bel Canto amps are being hailed as the saviour of all ampliers but even existing owners will admit that there are a few things the amps don't do right. The Naim poster was just highlighting what he saw as a flaw but in the grand scheme of things, does it really matter what he thinks as he was just expressing a personal opinion? It's what you think about the amp that matters is it not?

In terms of some hifi mag using the Bel Canto amp as a reference, well What Hifi magazine uses Krell amps as their reference. Does that make Krell amps best amps around? This is not to put down BC amps but I'm sure you know what I'm getting at.



Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

Don't know if I'd necessarily agree with that
The Bryston 14BSST I bought off WM sounded marginally worse to my ears, in his system, mainly in terms of the bass being less overblown with the BC.. But then the BC had been on for ever, was sitting on a decent suppport rather than the floor and was powered from decent mains cables (and atomic treatment plant!) rather than a small gauge extension lead (sorry to be talking about your gear Tone without being here )
In my system, I haven't heard a better amp (though that may mean nowt..). Amazing transparancy - I'd say the BC is more hifi, but not really valve-like in the classic Radford sort of way.
And at 645 certified w/ch you're not going to find much more oomph than teh Big Bryston(and, non more black ).

 

Just to add my thoughts,I owned a Copland amp before (valve)then put in the Bel-canto,and I would agree that there is no comparision in the sound at all ,to me the Bel canto doesn't really sound like a valve amp.

What I did notice straight away was the midrange,it was recessed,vocals dropped back into the speaker,whereas the Copland pushed them out of the boxes to the front.

But where the bel canto really stood out,was the control ,it really grips the speakers,I thought it timed extremly well indeed.Also the top end is very clean and revealing,it will revel great detail,speed and dynamics.and as Lawrie suggest I use mine with a Conrad johnson pre.

was it worth it new asking price? I would honestly say no,but second hand they are a steal,brilliant top and bottom,but i would have liked a bit more presence in the midrange,overall in still delighted with mine,as is going no where,mines a evo 200.2.