Best music for testing PRaT

since Naim loves PRaT it kind of "hurries along" mellower classical stuff

I really don't think so. IME the better a system times the less likely it is to hurry *anything* along. If the timing is extremely good, even very fast and complex music will sound slower beatwise than on other systems (subjectively, of course), and slow pieces might sound slower still.

The only reason I can think of is that the information transferred from your auditory system to your brain is less confusing and muddled, and therefore your brain has an easier time making sense of what it's presented (that's about as blinding as my science babble gets).

I can't say this for sure, but I would guess that the phenomenon I described above often misleads people to think that the system is slow (I'm particularly suspicious of comments such as "the music sounded really slow, man") when in fact it is fast (not beats-per-minute fast, but transient or rise time or whatever it's called) and times very well (which, IME, makes the music sound slower).

I reckon good old trance / dance music is the best for it

Probably not, particularly if the rhythmic structure is pretty straight. Computer-generated, mechanical beats may not sound fat and unrelentingly powerful on a bad system, but they hardly pose a challenge timing-wise I should think, and I would definitely agree with the following:

Try Salsa, Jazz and other music with complicated rhythms ... if it leaves you feeling flat and you can't follow any of the syncopation then the system has crap PRaT.

That said, there is probably a big difference between the way "musicians' timing" and "hifi timing" is generated; the end result if either works well should be the same though: enjoyment.

Apart from that, I don't understand what the difference between "rhythm" and "timing" is supposed to be when people speak of pace, rhythm and timing. I should think that, with reproduction systems, timing automatically leads to good rhythm -- provided the playing is good and there is some sort of rhythm to the music to begin with.

 

Ian, you've made my day

I'd add that if you can get into Gong without the aid of hallucionagenics, then the system is definately working

 

Can - Soon Over Babaluma.

 

Merlin and Sideshowbob,

On the back of your comments, I have added that soft machine album to my order. It had better be as good as you say it is

 

Robbo, get Soft Machine 1 while you're at it - it's even better...

Soft Machine 3 has Moon In June, which is ace, but Soft Machine 1 is pure gold from start to finish.

-- Ian

 

afro celt sound system-volume 2

 

That is a good one. I'd go however for Led Zep 1 - pretty much anything. When I recently demmed B&W N802s (coming back this weekend, maybe to stay....) I whacked up Dazed and Confused, and the drumming was awesomely realistic, really underpinning the rhythm and timing.

 

Difficult to say, I'm still learning, but FWIW some generalisations I could make at this moment in time...

1) The listening room (certainly not the be all and end all by any means but if you're lucky enough to start off with a good 'un it'll save you lots of time, effort and money in the long run).

2) Good amp... At the more affordable end of the market, PWM would seem to offer the most in speaker drive unit control which is important.

3) Be wary of reflex/ported speakers (again not definitive by ports usually give extension over ultimate control)

4) Good mains and power equipment supplies (can't be over stated IMO)

5) Dare I mention cables... Well speaker cables anyway.

Possibly... Other members of this forum were present on the aforementioned occassion, but I won't go into naming names at this stage. Although I would still say, having known aforementioned friend for quite some years that it is definitely his uncultured taste in music that was the barrier to enjoyment rather than the hi-fi.

 

Well, I'm going on Henryt's comments re my Naim stuff and classical. Personally I couldn't really tell as I'm not a big classical fan. Certainly Titanic OST, Schindler's List OST and Elgar's Cello Concerto have all sounded emotional and fine to me on the Naim stuff I have. Although IF it's hurrying anything it probably helps, as I find most classical deadly boring.

Certainly, complex non 4/4 rhythms are also a good test. Not sure if I'd want to inflict salsa on my system though

 

Well, I'm going on Henryt's comments re my Naim stuff and classical. Personally I couldn't really tell as I'm not a big classical fan. Certainly Titanic OST, Schindler's List OST and Elgar's Cello Concerto have all sounded emotional and fine to me on the Naim stuff I have. Although IF it's hurrying anything it probably helps, as I find most classical deadly boring.

I know Henryt's right re groove/real deep bass - I've been watching how much money he's spent on his system to achieve fairly good results - though you KNOW you want those cables from Tone, Henry That bass was sounding bloody excellent when I came round that time!

I DEFINITELY need a bit more bass in my system. I think my little Elas are lost in the large concrete box. Putting my Epos ES14s off the NAIT this weekend (BANG! Ooops!) for a laugh to see if the boomy bass they can exhibit will imbue my system with a bit more bass; the room's too overdamped really I think.

Certainly, complex non 4/4 rhythms are also a good test. Not sure if I'd want to inflict salsa on my system though

 

IMO systems with the dreaded PRAT have plenty of energy in the mid/upper bass, but less extension than the owners might expect. Bass below say 30hz really does have the subjective affect of slowing down the music, something the riddem boys don't like. It is perfectly possible to get the impression of great bass without having ultimate extension, I know many speakers are voiced this way.

It's only when you know a note is missing it really grates. Example would be the descending bass note on NS's Nadia. It should last for all four bars, but it is a rare system that achieves the full note.

 

Merlin, spot on I think. Very few truly full-range speakers avoid the subjective impression of slowness IME, and plenty are voiced to sound as if they go deeper than they actually do. Most of what passes for "deep bass" in these sorts of discussions is really mid-bass.

- Ian

 

Yes I agree with all that.

Best music for testing timing is anything with a bassline: it's in the bass that many systems lose the plot.

 

That's what Henryt keeps saying to me; since I don't own my own house (and never will now!!!) I can't have huge volume/extension without getting evicted; if I could afford a system that did bass better, I could afford my own house He he he...

 

A good pair of subwoofers well integrated won't slow down any music, believe me... :MILD:

 

"slowing down the music"

There you go again! I consider myself a bit of a riddim boy, and still, in my experience:

better timing/"fast" system = slower sounding music.

Well, at least one person here seems to understand what I'm on about.

 

So far this is what I am finding, not necessarily to any great level of performance, but by using small main speakers and an active sub-bass system (as REL like you to describe their products!), the results seem to be the best of both worlds.

I find it baffling that some folks are prepared to abandon the quest for good bass extension and control - which is an essential part of many musical passages - assuming fidelity to the original is an objective for those folks.

Is this a typical attribute of applied PRaTism or am I getting confused (again!)

I expect, nay I DEMAND, both rhythmic composure/articulation AND bass control/extension, as well as emotional content, detail, clarity, etc. Am I being unrealistic?

 

I don't know what 'PRaT' means, AFAIK it's an invention of Martin Colloms, so probably 13.29%?

If your system can make sense of Trout Mask Replica, it's probably OK.

Paul

 

Essentially I am saying the same thing. This notion of the quest for a system which is better suited to presenting timing and rhythm in music by ditching anything below the upper mid bass seems crazy (IMHO). As I dont really understand the distinction I just want any self-confessed PRaTists to tell me if I understand their preference a little.

To me it seems such a niche way of looking at musical reproduction, though maybe if some folks only ever listen to one "type" of music, maybe it suffices for them. I'm not spoiling for a row, I'm genuinely tying to get the point.

 

I wouldn't say that a system that does real deep bass sounds slow!

I have been listening to a pair of PMC BB5's Bi-amped with Bryston something's.. These go down to 18hz I believe. Also my new active PMC AML1's which go to 28hz in my room. These do NOT sound slow!!! They boogie like a mad boogie monster boogieing to the boogiest track there is!!! :boogie: :banana: :drum: :devil: Then again that is around £15,000 of amp and speakers.

I ill say though that if a system or subwoofer has quite a lot of THD then it can sound slow. A lot of subs do have high THD as well! If you have just pure, deep bass then it doesn't seem to affect the musics speed at all.

Greg, I think the main reason is that if you 'focus' your money on a narrower frequency band then you get pay-offs in timing and detail that a system where you spent the same money but it could reproduce the whole audio range wouldn't be able to do.

Essentially, if the driver has to move less air (bass) then it can be more accurate and have better timing and pace etc..