Buy from a Dealer or buy Direct?

No. In my all out best possible sounding system:

The best sounding turntables ever made are not made any more.

The best sounding speakers ever made are not made any more.


Nothing to do with value for money in my fantasy system. A lot to do with the corporations that specialised in the best hi-fi components going out of business or no longer existing in their previous forms.

 

I partially agree here, since I am an analogue and valve lover. Still, some of the new stuff is simply glorious! I'm thinking cartridges here for example, tweaks for vintage gear, valve amps. If one wants to get started in the world of valve amplification, for instance, there are some pretty good examples at very affordable prices out there, new and fuss free for a few years to come. Compatible with my love for classic gear as Quad, Leak, Croft, etc.

All of us started somewhere. It's unlikely you go digging hi-fi 'cause you love tinkering with a soldering iron, at least this is not my personal experience. I earn my living as a literature teacher. Now I'm making a giant pair of horns, go figure.

As many Brits like to say, you have to be exposed to it. I'd like more people getting into hi-fi, and I must recognise some delears did a good job back in those newbie days. Even those who where unwilling to do so, I s'ppose.

It's all about finding out what suits you best, and a shrinking market should never be considered good news, since nobody wins in the end.

Regards,

Vincula

 

I am intrigued what are the best sounding loudspeakers that are no longer made?

 

Sorry, I don't go for the nostalgic argument at all. It's like owning classic cars or bikes. They can be excellent and gorgeous in their own right, but no one in their right mind thinks a 50 year old Norton is better than its modern equivalent. More 'fun' yes, but if you are facing a 100 mile commute, you buy a Japanese bike because it's better built.

It's sort of understandable for turntables, because the engineering projects that created the Garrard, Lenco and EMT designs, and the prestige Japanese DD decks, are long gone. But they died off because they were either too expensive to produce or not as good as they claimed. Problem is, anything engineered prior to the mid-1980s (as in the majority of the so-called 'best sounding' decks) is built to a far looser set of tolerances than modern designs.

When it comes to the best decks of the past, there's an inability to see what they would be worth today if they were still made. Something like a Technics SP10 would cost more than a SME 30 and the cost of a 'new' Garrard 501 gives you an idea of how much a 'new' 301 would cost. As for the EMT decks... you are talking Continuum money.

As to better loudspeakers, well... no. The materials on offer even 10 years ago - coupled with almost complete absence of computer design, modeling and measurement systems on anything made 30 years or more ago - means there's no justifiable reason at all to hang on to the old stuff.

 

Depends on one's musical tastes and hi-fi tastes.

For some it will be Quad ESL57's. Either singly or in stacked pairs or in a quad of Quads per channel.


For me and my tastes, my number 1 would love to buy speakers? Well, they have a frequency response that ranges from below 20hz to above 20khz +/- 3 db. They are highly efficient with a gentle and high impedance curve. They are easily converted to bi-amped or fully active use. They were extremely expensive when new. They are very rare now and very expensive. They are also very large and heavy. I don't want to name them on a public forum until I've actually been able to buy a pair. Monster speakers like this just aren't made any more.


The vast majority of modern speakers go for lifestyle and WAF at the expense of all out sound quality. Or they're designed to be used with current dumping ss amps - ie low efficiency and low impedance.

 

Sounds like my speakers.
Keith.

 

I think this needs re-saying on this thread.

I think we need to look into history to see how the present way to market was established and the reasons.

The origins of our industry go back to the 1950's and lots of men demobbed from the army but with electronic skills from the war, plus the availability of large amounts of government surplus ex war material in the way of components. A DIY hobby started based around companies who competed at the gov auction to buy this stuff like Lasky's, G W Smith, Henry's and Comet based in Hull, etc. This created a hobby that was then helped by the publishing business with the creation of Wireless World magazine and others. Some of these hobbyists like Walker with Quad and Leak etc started to sell their designs which they did through the established brown goods network then established with radio and TV shops. This meant they sold through wholesalers who marked it up and then sold it to the retailers.

This all changed with the end of retail price maintanance by law which brought in the discounters. The discounters were the hobbyist surplus shops that started to sell finished goods and because of their buying power they forced down prices from the wholesalers and a price war emerged between them with more and more advertising to say "my price is cheapest" which created a surge in Hi-Fi magazines to service this market and need for advertising. Also at that time the Japanese companies had invaded the market with cheap quality goods that put a lot of British product to shame. Everything was reviewed, sold and advertised still on specifications.

Some of the British companies along with the established and newer traditional brown goods shops wanted a way to counter this otherwise they would have died. So (illegal) agreements were taken out direct with manufacturers to protect their market, to keep product out of the discounters. But it was all still promoted purely on specs.

Things changed again with a certain Scottish business man who decided to market a concept that he thought the industry needed and saw a way to make lots of money. Very simple - decide what to buy by listening to a product and not just get the best spec. The established dealers like Grahams etc jumped at it, as it gave them an advantage in a market that they were losing. BUT for it to work a whole network of middle men and add ons had to be established to create the brainwash, plus the incentive of high profit margins was needed to pay for all this. Magazines, retailers, reveiwers, expert brainwashed salesmen - all the middle men or as I call them slurpers were created from this - and the flat earth was created. Other companies (such as nva) came in to compete in this market but the prime movers just created more bullshit by saying "now don't listen and choose, you must listen to what we tell you to listen for, and to" and the market was put into a state of control even to the forming of institutions like BADA that has lasted up to the recent past.

Smaller offshoot of this marketing method appeared such as the valve thing, until AV and then the market shifted a bit back to the discounters, who had suffered with many of them like Lasky's going bust and others like Comet down marketing in Hi-Fi terms.

OK what comes around goes around and the industry is now going back to its root enthusiasts again, Hi-Fi is no longer a "must have", many more thing compete for available dosh. The whole on line thing has opened up new possibilities and ways to market that make the old ways seem expensive and unnecessary.

This part of this thread is just exploring ways that the market will / could change. It has always changed as you can see and it is always the vested interests, the Luddites and the Dinosaurs that try to stop the changes, but it is natural and unstoppable.

 

I don't think we'd object so much to the dealer network if they genuinely added value.
If they add nothing above and beyond the direct seller apart from mark-up then they deserves to fail, as many have.
If dealers were genuinely unbiased and resistant to the kind of control freakery imposed by certain UK manufacturers and the likes of BADA there'd have been less of an issue.
Also, if you can go to a dealer and spend several hours using their facilities without pressure and the hard sell for certain products, then we have genuine added value in the form of a useful service.

Dealers like this have always existed and still do but they are very much in the minority, so we are right to be critical of some using the old model.

Richard's point about the likes of Lasky's, WG Smith and the 'old' Comet puts me in mind of one retailer today still sticking to that model - Richers.
Going into one of their larger stores is pure time warp back to the late 70s and Lasky's on the TCR.

 

The whole pricing thing is debatable anyway as a fair bit direct sales stuff seems to simply absorb much of what was dealer mark-up into profit. Whilst it is impossible to compare exact like for like as specific products do clearly differ, much still seems pretty similarly priced to me if you think of it in base terms of 'a nice interconnect', 'an active speaker', 'a boutique 50 watt amp' or whatever. There is no hard and fast delimiter here IMO, some products on both sides look like good value, some far less so.

Tony.

 

Now this is where we get a split in the market that is like a transition stage. Companies that went through retail or set their prices to go through retail cannot suddenly drop their prices by 40%, a receipe for some seriously cross customers. So you see a lot of direct sales at the old retail prices, but you will probably see no price increases from those companies until the market balances. For new or small companies they can start straight away giving what used to be trade price to end users, so just cutting out the retail margin. That is obviously the most honest way and will give those companies a price advantage that should be recognised.

In my situation due to circumstances I was lucky. I got so pissed of with retailers and the industry generally that I closed the company in 2000, first looking at the possibilities of direct sales and on-line, but the way to market wasn't ready in its infrastructure then. I looked again in 2005 and decided it could now be done, so re-activated the company and came back into the market. So I sell at trade price to *everyone*, if a dealer wants to buy he can, he gets trade price the same as everyone. In fact on some products my prices are cheaper than they were in the 1990's. This last bit is not meant as personal promotion, though the dissers I am sure will kick and bite, but as an example of how the market is changing.

 

Ultimately the buyer decides on value, but they need access to some important information to have an informed view, for starters:

What's inside the box?
Are premium components uses?
Who builds it?
Where is it manufactured?
How many hours are invested in producing it?

Then we have an issued that we haven't touched on - product placement in the market.
Market expectation for say a £500 speaker is quite different from one selling for £2000, or say a £20 cable against one at £500.
There is a considerable amount of snobbery in audio and ingrained bias which means that people will take very expensive kit far more seriously, even where there are actually no performance gains.
So a £10,000 Krell or Levinson amplifier will carry an automatic assumption of vast superiority over say a Cambridge 840 at £800.
The cambridge might be as good or better - but it cannot access the Krell/Levinson market because of what is printed on the price ticket.

A company will sometimes increase sales by actually selling at a higher price when claims are made that a product competes with others at the higher end.
The press lead this IMO by setting artificial product compartments.
You see it every month in the mags - 'Mega test of £500-2000 amplifiers'
If on testing those amplifiers they discover that the least expensive at £500 not only sweeps all aside in the review but is comparable to those at 10x the price, they immediately scupper the income opportunities by testing more expensive amplifiers (cos there is now little point) and they potentially damage their advertising revenue.

 

That is the old way and perception that is dying. Education on forums and on-line is the way to counter this bullshit and the slurp. It will happen.

There has and always will be prestige products to cater for the rich to find ways to spend their money, it is there in all markets, but it represents a small percentage and mostly small companies. It is only in the Hi-Fi market that this became so prominent. In the car market it exists to allow teenage boys (and other who don't grow out of it) to fantasize like some semi sexual masturbation fettish. They drive their Astras and imagine it is a Buggatti Veron.

 

Once upon a time in the early 90’s ( pre internet days for me) I had the notion to manuf some hifi speakers – a novel design at that time with excellent performance & high WAF

I developed a network of contacts within the industry & was on the point of setting up in business

Talking to a few dealers but these guys wanted to mark up the product a minimum 100% - As a manuf I had to supply the warranty / packaging / delivery / marketing / brochures / magazine reviews et al.
Plus sale or return product to the dealers.

My experience of these guys as a customer was that they would always try to steer me to one of their other favourite products. Head bobbing by the side of me. I was not enamoured, & had little faith they would help promote my product.

Magazine reviews depended on consistent advertising placements. You need a lot of cash for that. The more advertising the higher the review.

Direct sale seemed the fairest solution particularly as this was unlikely to be a mass produced item

Couple of things happened which made me hold back - the driver manuf had problems with the supply of his cone components after his supplier retired & although he was trying to source these elsewhere he was not having much luck with the required quality. But the most crucial element was the market bottomed out. Many good manuf’s went to the wall during this time & I stood back watching this happen.

I consider myself lucky.

If I were to resurrect the product I suspect I would still consider the direct sales route as the most viable, but the simplicity of dealing with a small handful of dealers is way more attractive, provided their mark up is sensible & that my product was given fair treatment. Direct sales requires a lot more effort & energy to promote so I can understand the frustrations involved.

 

It is all so easy and simple, and has been done by one small speaker manufacturer on PF. Invest in building two or three pairs, to begin with just think of yourself as an enthusiast and don't give up the day job. Take them to forum bake-offs and offer to supply them to forum members to try as long as they report their findings honestly. It is pure Darwinism, if the product is as good as you think it is people will buy, especially at trade price. If they don't and people are not interested then enjoy them yourself. You wont lose any money as you have one pair for yourself and a couple to sell on ebay at cost and return your investment.

Treat it initially as a bit of fun and enjoy yourself.

 

i beg to differ,. i have clients that are quite well of, they can afford 4 let's say krell mono block's some have even audition the full blown mak's yet they are very happy with their £1200 valve amp, as for spkrs most still use the ones they bought aprox. 25-30 years ago,
they do preffer home visits for a general chat and advice on their systems, often they would end up buying accesorys to play with. is the personal service that pleases them more.
nando.

 

Personally I would buy my gear as cheap as possible from wherever possible and as long as in good nick 2ndhand.

Secondly I would deal with companies I can trust and have dealt with in the past that have given good service, manufacturer direct or dealer and......

Thirdly try a company that can deliver next day if I'm being impatient and hope all is well when they arrive.

Most important thing for me tho has to be price! I think the rest falls behind that and with the internet being such a great tool these days for shopping manufacturer direct is a better option although the benefits of a demo are not there, Im sure alot of people demo where they can and then buy from wherever works out cheapest.

This then puts dealers in a very awkward position as they are not making much money but we still need them especially for demos, I knnow some manufacturers allow a home trial which is obviously the best solution and demoing gear in a shop only gives u an insight, tho I think if dealers didnt have such a large mark-up then maybe they would sell more?

 

As I said before a lot depends on available cash.

Money no object then (becasue I like the NAIM sound) I'd be down to the SO or Cymbiosis for a 252/SCAP/300. I would be happy to pay the price because the service would be first class. I dont have that kind of cash so its s/h, DIY or eBay for my NAIM stuff.

The dealers I have visited recently all seem to be very busy!

 

quote

would you agree that in most cases price does not deliver the service you demand>? to most of us time is money consuming,
naando.

 

I would only in the sense that I know how much mark up there is but as an enjoyable hobby I and we do spend alot to enjoy the hobby as many people do with other interests they have, selling on after an initial brand new buy is a killer tho!

 

quote

i agree, i am sure that a discount is always available,