Cartridge fun and the spacearm

Hi All,

I got my new stylus for the V15VxMR back from Shure a few weeks back but didn't do anything with it until this weekend.

I mentioned that I was going to try it on my (old aluminium tube) Spacearm to Tom Fletcher when I picked it up a while back after he'd upgraded it to the new pivot (well worth doing btw). I said I wanted to see how it compared to the Tracer 1 that was on it when I bought it and he suggested that it wouldn't work very well as the Shure tracks at just .75g to 1.25g and he felt this was to low for the arm (he didn't elucidate why).

Of course this weekend I decided to ignore this advice completely ... and discovered he was right. Tracking at 1g, you simply can't get the antiskate to go low enough. Tracking at 1.25g you can just about - but only by removing the antiskating weight entirely and even then its a bit touch and go. So the Shure goes back on the Michell for system no 2 and for now its back to the Tracer 1 on the Spacedeck.

Sooo... For some time I've been tempted by the MC option for the Spacearm. I've only ever had MMs and have an MM stage in the Densen, but want to see what the fuss is about. So some questions.

Is there a big difference between high and low output versions of MC carts?

If the low output MCs are a lot better would you go for an MC stage (Recommendations under £200 please), or given that I have a pretty decent MM stage already, might a step up transformer be a better option? (again, what though?)

What have people tried and loved on a Spacearm MC cartridge wise? - I was thinking along the lines of a Dynavector 10x5 or 20xH (or L) or something in a similar price bracket.

 

My only bit of thought on the matter really is this -

If you were budgeting 200 pounds for a step up transformer and 200 pounds for a low output MC, you could get a high output MC with double the effective budget (400 obviously).

As for the difference in sound, well its swings and roundabouts IME. To my mind, using a MM stage is one less level of amplification so its a good thing if you can find a high output cartridge you like. I dont think theres a right answer though frankly..

 

Denon 103 @ 100quid is the right answer. The PRO (available from www.eifl.co.jp ) is better, but would push you over the 200 mark.
I would go for the 103 and the best s/h stage you can find with what is left over.

 

I agree with Joel, fwiw.

I have a Denon DL160 MkII and I think it gives a lot of more expensive carts a run for its money (within reason). It is also a high output MC. I believe the DL103 is better still, so you can't go wrong with it.

I think you need to go into serious expenditure to have a significant improvement on these Denons. Particularly the 103.

Low output MCs are always more expensive than the rest (apart from a couple of pretty exclusive high end MMs) and the general thought I was passed is that they are considerably better when you start looking at things like the Koetzus and the van den Hulls... which cost an arm and a leg.

How much better are they I can't comment because I haven't actually heard them. I heard a Benz Micro Glider on an Orbe and it was pretty good but I can't tell if it was the Benz, the Orb, the Series V arm or the whole thing...

I would look at second hand Graham Slee stages. Or something with tubes.

Have fun!
Jack

 

my HO dynavector works fine on the spacearm.

 

Cheers for the input guys. Couple of useful options to consider here. I guess there's no easy answer to the:

MM cart/MM stage versus
High Output MC/MM Stage versus
Low Output MC/MM stage + stepup trans versus
Low Output MC/MC stage

conundrum

Its a shame the V15 is a no go on the Spacearm, I loved it on the Rega arm. The Tracer is a good cart but it doesn't track as well (especially low frequencies) and it seems a little quieter in the mid band - but then its about a third of the list price. How much of the difference in trackability is down to the cart and how much the arm though I don't know. Overall the Spacedeck/Spacearm/Tracer combo is without a doubt a major stepup from the Focus One/RB250/V15 combo, but I do sometimes notice the Tracer getting a little uneasy towards the end of the side if we have something a bit loud and bassy.

I guess I'm after something which tracks almost as well as the Shure and has something of its sound but which tracks at a heavier VTF. I assumed to match the performance of the Shure at around the £300/£400 point I'd need to be looking MC, but if there is an MM that does the job then it'd certainly be a lot easier.

Back to MCs though, I must admit its the trackability issue which makes me a little hesitant of the Denon 103. That conical stylus - just how well does it cope when you get to the inner groove? I always put the Shures fine tracking ability down to the stylus profle.

PS. I'm a big fan of Reggae and Dub - so low frequency tracking ability is important. The last thing I need is King Tubby giving my cartridge a hissy fit

 

Could be the cart, but it could be the arm too. When I was using a Hadcock (also a unipivot) it was incredibly fussy to set up VTF and anti-skating exactly right, took about two weeks of experimenting before I got it playing properly without any trace of end of side distortion. Even the tiniest adjustment made very audible differences. Might be worth some more fiddling before splashing out on a new cartridge.

-- Ian

 

Okay. I'll have a fiddle with the VTF/bias. I was having a bit of a mess around with it last night and pulled out my one and only test record (the Shure Era III Obstacle Course) and it confirmed what I was thought I was occasionally hearing - it got through the high and mid frequency tracking tests without incident but failed quite obviously when it got to the fourth and fifth bass tracking tests (which the Shure on the RB250 sailed). I upped the VTF a bit and it was marginally better, but not hugely so - maybe the window of "rightness" is just very narrow on this arm . I'm pretty sure the bias is currently spot on though. Mind you, it could also be that my VTF gauge - a cheap plasticy Ortofon thing - isn't all that accurate.

 

Ian,

Had a good mess around with it and think I'm getting somewhere. The VTF is slightly up and the VTA is slightly up too. Not getting any end side distortion now that I can tell (except on the odd record which I've never been able to get track right - usually Motown greatest hits type things with about 20 tracks on). It really has taken some messing with though and I'm still not 100% happy as the sound now seems a little bass heavy. It still breaks up on track 4 of the test record (though not as much), but not in real life.

I might just get the old Michell/RB250 down and put the Tracer on that - might give some clue as to whether this is a cartridge thing or an arm thing.

I have to say the more I use the Spacedeck the more in love I fall with it ... but I can't say the same about the arm. It sounded better before I messed with it and tried out the Shure and now, while I've got it tracking a bit better I can't seem to get it setup just so. Its a fiddly so and so, and its not as if I'm a total newbie when it comes to messing about with tonearms. The old RB250 was a piece of cake in comparison. No doubt if I fiddle some more and it finally snaps into perfect adjustment I'll change my tune. I'm starting to wonder if I'm blaming the cart for my inability/lack of patience in setting up an arm which is a bit fussy.

 

Unipivots are buggers aren't they? They can sound fantastic when you get them right. When I got the Hadcock I spent the first couple of weeks cursing myself for buying it, it just refused to stay in tune for any length of time. Finally I got it right and it stayed perfectly in tune for a year or so (until it developed a wiring fault and got replaced with a Technoarm, which took five minutes to set up and, on my bouncy Michell, probably sounds, overall, just as good).

-- Ian

 

So it would seem

I shall persevere. If I can't sort it out in the next couple of weeks (and if Auntie doesn't tear her hair out listening to same XTC track over and over and over again), then I can feel myself placing an order for the Rega collar for the Spacedeck and temporarily nicking the Rega off the Michell to do tonearm duty until I work out what to do about the Spacearm. My romance with the idea of the unipivot is still here (but it is starting to wear a tad thin) - thing is I know it sounded so good before numbnuts here started fooling with it

 

Although what i'm about to say doesn't really relate to playing a 'real' record, but my Denon DL103 manages to track the 18dB Troture track on the HFN&RR test disc OK. It is not as quite as the first track obviously, but i don't get any major buzzing, jumping, skipping or other stuff. It is not entirely quite though either , with a 'reasonable' amount of 'static like' sound heard equally on both channels, just in the background. This is a 'torture track' though when all said and done. Bias tracks 1 and 2 are 'perfect' , track 3 just a little less so and then track 4 as I've already described.

These DL103 cartridges have been manufactured for many, many years and have many happy users, for the money that they cost I don't think they are too much of a risk. It is also the singular most easy cartridge i have ever fitted and aligned. Lots of straight sides, with a really usefull 'cut out' in front of the cantelever , so you can line it up perfectly from the front.

 

Hi Sid,

Thanks for the recommendation. Might be one to consider then if I can't get this sorted out. I'd have to think about another box as well though. One of the reasons one of the high output MCs is attractive if I have to go down that route. The low price of the Denon is pretty attractive though (for when it needs replacing).

Further fiddling last night has got me a tad closer I feel, but careful listening still reveals a trace of end side distortion which I know wasn't there with the RB250/Shure combination. I can't be entirely sure it wasn't there before I started all this fiddling though.

I'm definitely going to try the Tracer on the Michell/RB250 at the weekend in order to nail this down. If the Tracer behaves in exactly the same way on the RB250 then I'm in the market for a new (hopefully better tracking) cart I think - The Dynavector 10x5 is current front runner, but if I can get a good MC step up for reasonable money your Denon might get a look in . If however the Tracer behaves itself on the RB250 then a Technoarm is on the cards I think and its back to the trusty old Shure. I'm assuming I'll get a reasonable amount back on the Spacearm via ePay.

Interesting to ponder the relationship between the test tracks and real world performance though. I'm assuming that an arm and cart which can tackle all the torture tracks is going to behave pretty flawlessly in the real world, but that failure in the real difficult tests doesn't necessarily imply a flawed real world performance ... at which point one must ask at what point failure is likely to indicate real world problems.

 

I've never owned, much less used, a test LP, for this very reason. If the setup works in the real world why bother to see if it will track torture tracks? Just gives one more possibly irrelevant thing to worry about and fiddle with.

On the Denon 103 question, I've never heard one but based on the raves it gets, and the fact that it's so cheap, it'll definitely be the first thing I try when the Rohmann eventually dies. The Denon 110 is another, high-output, possibility, and also has many fans (at least one person on PFM prefers it to the 103):

http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/sc.9/category.-109/it.A/id.234/.f

-- Ian

 

I think they are potentially useful in the sense that a quick run through on setup will tell you if there is anything badly wrong and also to potentially confirm something you think is wrong in real world listening. Not convinced of their use in terms of - this cart is better than that cart though.

The DL-110 is certainly food for thought - £80 at HiFiStore That's silly cheap. Can carts at this price genuinely compete with carts three times the price?

PS. Having a nose around, the DL-160 looks even more interesting. Hmm. My impulse purchasing reflex maybe starting to kick in .... I can feel it .... its pay day too .... arrghhh.

 

More fiddling around and I think I may be there Seems spot on - problem is I don't know exactly what I did to put it right (fiddling with VTA I think)

One thing I did notice in all my fiddling though - changes to VTA on the Spacearm seemed to have a far greater knock on effect to VTF than the same change in VTA would have on the Rega arm - and I think that's why its so much of a fiddle relatively speaking. I'm guessing its down to the low slung counterweight, but my O level physics was too long ago to work it out properly.

 

Bit of an update

Still struggling to get happy with the Tracer, so I had another go with the Shure. Starting methodically from scratch I have actually managed to get it working fine on the spacearm now.

Its tracking at 1.25g and with the little anti bias weight removed and the counterweight very, very slightly offset (what I didn't try before), I've got it running just right - hoorah and it does indeed sound considerably better than the Tracer, no end of side distortion, fewer ticks and pops, better detail and better control in bass department. Unfortunately you guys have now put the idea of an MC in my head ...

PS. Auntie Ants doesn't like it so much because she can't see the stylus as easily for queuing - still can have everything.

PPS. Completely off this topic, did anyone see in this months HFC that they are now selling the new Okki Nokki vacuum cleaning machine? £199 - that's a bit cheaper than the competition. Maybe I shouldn't be worrying about carts and should think about this as a better investment and give my prcious viyl a treat.

 

Definitely. At £200 that'll be coming my way for my birthday if they still sell it!

 

I went from a DV20 High to a DV20 low using my Dino for both and I think on the whole I prefer the High.

You gain a bit of low level detail but I think you lose some of the punch that comes from the H.
Also despite the Dino being fairly quiet there is still more background noise from the L.

In my opinion a DV20H would be a great match for your Densen and it's certainly going to work well enough in its H guise.

All IMHO of course.

J

 

This was exactly the advice given to me about a year ago by someone with a vested interest in carts. The answer is: Absolutely yes. A vac cleaning machine is essential.
FWIW, a Denon 103 PRO would give you plenty of punch (assuming a correct phono stage).