ClassD amps and their performance

Why don't you try what bottleneck did and biamp using something like a Crown/ MC2/Class D on bass and your 300b's on top?

 

My speakers are single wired?

 

Sorry for the delay I have been away.

These were 2*200w and 2*400w into 8 and 4 ohm respectively (I think, but it might have been 4 and 2 ohm) and, as I said, based on Hypex modules. I think these were originally bespoke, build-to-order units for a customer, but, if you are interested, it would be best to talk to Colin at Chevin. I understand he also uses Hypex modules for his personal system. Not sure whether it is relevant for you, however, if you are thinking of building some amps yourself.

 

Well, that's no excuse.

 

I use bel canto ref1000 and they are good clean clear and detailed , They also sipe electricity. I also use Antique sound labs hurricane monos , they sound great in fact the best I have heard but take a while to heat up and when they are at temp you have to open the window, They also use lots of electricity so are not very green. so its swings and roundabouts BC are fast food and ASL are a sit down meal wearing shorts and t shirt with the aircon on full.Hope this helps.

 

Thanks Parkandride I spoke with Chevin and they plan to release the hypex module based amps as a Chevin product. My idea or thoughts are along the lines of monoblock class d ,a lot of bang for a few(relatively speaking bucks) fronted with a valve preamp.Partly because of previous statement in that they are greener and full swing with my valve amp and you are down to your shorts in no time.Truth be told as well is the need to try somerthing different.

 

I feel a lot of honest opinions being fairly expressed here which is nice, The basic issue with the class 'd' amplifiers is implimentation of the technology nothing more. Those that wish to achieve a great sound with the genre' will. Others will make a marketable product that will sell.
Careful matching of the current crop of switching amps is very important too, in the same way valves can sound staid, boring and emotionless (with incorrect partnering equipment) the class 'd' amplifiers can sound sterile, overly forward, with the sound 'reigned in' the speaker boundaries, by over high damping factors.
Therefore forgoing the key ingredient of believability.
However they can also sound very special too, and with a wide verity of equipment and circumstances.
For me the key of a correct switching amplifier design is in the use of the 'module' if you like as output stage, utilising a fully discrete input stage, bespoke power staging and correcting filtration and greater bandwidth.
I would say that the next generation of switching amplifiers will be a little different lol!
Again personal taste plays a big part in how you like your Audio soup!
The Karan range amplifiers (imho) have a long way to go to achieve the Dartzel's capability of truly bringing the music to you.
Op-amps not with standing ;-), Honesty is not the forte', neither is total realism. They have a certain sound which like naim, imparts its own identity into the sound.
With suitable speakers they are a class act, but no Dartzel.
I believe more of an 'Ayre level' is nearer the mark.
Interesting times are ahead for the much maligned class 'd' technology

 

I have just become aware of the forthcoming John Westlake full digital amplifier, as a result of searching around the web based on some info on another thread about DACs.

This product, if it delivers on its promised specs, at the price point suggested, is, in my opinion, the most exciting device to hit the hi fi scene in my lifetime.

A DXD full digital amplifier at a reasonable cost. This is something beyond the wildest dreams of an audiophile twenty years ago.

Shortest signal path possible at the highest resolution available (media availability notwithstanding) this has the potential to be an amazing product.

Advances in digital technology have been incredible. Price performance ratio is improving all the time.

If only the same improvements could be made with speakers, we would all be laughing. But that's not possible due to the physical constraints of making drivers and cabinets.

 

I own a rare Sony ES series TA-DA9000ES digital amp. Rare because the Sony name doesn't appear to carry much prestige in some audiophile circles, and because it is no longer available - albeit the 'updated' model, the TA-DA9100ES is, but only in Japan.

In operating principle it is almost identical (with some proprietary DSP processing) to the Tact and Lyngdorf 'full' digital amps as against the Bel cantos etc; indeed to describe it as a 7 channel Tact Millenium would be pretty close to the mark.

It is the best amp I've ever owned, and one of the best I've ever heard regardless of cost. Coming from the perspective of Naim ownership, the sense of 'PRaT' and musical expression re dynamics in the music is just superb and on a level I have not experienced before. Detail and overall resolution is simply astonishing. Yet, it is smooth and fatigue free.

There may possibly be better amps out there, but the question would be by how much, and what would it cost to get that difference? Certainly an NAC 552/500 combo doesn't do it, nor did an recent MacIntosh on performance grounds, superb as both these amps are.

Like others with the Tact and Lyngdorfs have stated, the major problem would be what to replace it with if it failed.

I am simply stunned to find such Hi-End performance at such attainable prices. And with Sony ES flagships, the quality is up in the Accuphase arena.

I could not easily see myself going back to analogue amplification, despite there being more than a few amps that would tempt me, simply because of the balance of virtues as against vices for Class D.

Just my 2cents worth

Respectfully

Jon...

 

Hi Colin2040 Hopefully I can add a bit to this debate about Class D amps. As one of the above members stated ,there are quite a few Class D designs around and I have some experience with Tri-Path and B&O Ice in the context of Bel-Canto's designs and Chapter Audios version of this technology.
I must say that I didn't like the early Bel-Canto sound and a software fault with the integrated (going to full volume at 0 on the volume control didn't ,help,distributor was very helpful on this problem-Thanks Bill).I felt that the sound was very dark and a bit bland. The current Bel-Canto designs are much better in this respect and while the sound still isn't quite for me I was able to see a lot of potential for this type of technology.
Chapter Audio Preface+ Pre amp and Couplet Power amplifier is a very different sound all together. This combination has a very quite background (the blacks are very black),with excellent detail retrieval and nice soundstaging ,in all a very natural sound. But as one of the other posters said a very bland and ultimately slightly boring sound . I put this down to a lack of presence (more of an issue with the first version of Chapter's power amp as well as it lacking drive),that the current version which has a very good midrange .
I feel that Class D amps must be treated a bit like low powered Valve amps in that the Amplifier Speaker interface has a much lower threshold for mismatching . This may explain the slight issues I had with my system in that my Gallo's like good current delivery. This seems to be an area (despite quoted power ),that Class D can struggle with. Cabling can also have an effect in this as well,so any cables used should not be the type that puts to much of a load on things .
We are really in on the beginning of this technology and hopefully it may ,after more development offer a real alternative to the well established approaches .
I for one tried Hy-brid (valve/solid-state)and Class D and have gone back to Valves. This approach is not for every one but quite often those who say they don't like it may not have heard a good speaker/amplifier match. Bass is not an issue if this is done right and I love the naturalness and openess of this approach to audio.
However every one has to find their way and at the end of the day none of us are the same,different rooms,taste in music etc.
Hope this is of some help.

 

I think this generalisation is incorrect. It all depends on the specs of the amp in question.

For instance, my TDA2200 can swing a peak current of 40A. It's got 375W into 4ohms on tap. Most speakers will submit to that kind of power!!

 

I think like everything else its down to personal taste. I appreciate the amount of useful and informative responses my initial question has recieved.I will now have to try out some listening. I do love the look of the Accuphase amps and some Luxmans and they generally get good reviews, but ultimately they all run very hot and in some ways this is what I want to get away from. I think my main aim is peformance and convenience as I may look at a pre with remote etc . I am in no rush as I dont want a piece of kit that I will dislike in 2 - 3 months.

 

john has a real spread of digital stuff coming, Decapo replacement and digital amp, there must be a front end there somewhere.

 

Anthony is right i did generalize ,sorry but i am new to the forum and after reading my addition to this thread i realized that what i said perhaps could have been worded better.

The Class D i have tried (Bel-Canto,Flying Mole and Chapter Audio)have all needed extra care in cable and speaker matching and i have heard and read about some similiar issues with other Class D amplifiers . It would seem that the specification alone will not give a lot of clues as to how any Class D amp and speakers will match. Obviously you should never base a decision on this alone without trying any product in your system(equally a review based purchase is also a dangerous thing. Why do so many people do this ? Without trying it at home -any good dealer should allow a home loan.)

Colin2040 has the right idea as long term satisfaction is what we all hope for ,(there are those who live to chop and change,it would be nice to have that kind of money,time and patience)

I may have been in a similiar place to you and after trying a lot of amplifiers i went back to valves . For about ten years i used a very small room(not through choice) and i matched the system to the room . Audio Innovations s 500 ,Marantz cd 94 mk2, Pro ac Super Tabletes and a mixture of Xlo, Audio Note ANV and ANS cable.Vinyl was an Oracle Delphi mk4 ,with SME 309 ,VDH mc 10 cartridge and EAR head step up transformer .This system in that room was incredible ,but when i got married and tried the system in a room almost the same size it did not work very well . So i started a quest to find a better room in the house and explore all the options ,which i did .

I have tried a lot of stuff in the last 6 years or so and i have ended up back with valves (not El34 but Kt 66),the amp is an American Rodger Modesky design Music Reference rm 200 mk1 and the pre amp a BAT vk 31se. There is a quality to the valve sound i love(i know this isn't for every one ),that i could not find anywhere else .

Maybe like you Colin i had read about Class D sounding a bit like Valves (Bel-Canto used to make wonderful valve amps),and while some do a bit ,overall i think they really have there own sound and should be approached with that in mind.

I love the natural timbre ,three dimensionality,dynamics ,reproduction of macro and micro detail but above all it sounds like music (it has been said and some research backs this up that because we hear in analogue and not digital ,that analogue sounds more natural,distortion and all.) I know digital has come along way and distortion is a hot topic ,to have ,or not have and if so how much? Many will say valve bass is not good but this is down to poor speaker amp matching .

If an amp exists which does all the good things of Valve and Solid state then i would love to know what it is? The best i found was the Pathos classic one MK2 ,but eventually i found it to not be three dimensional enough , but it may be worth trying. Because i have to use small rooms i can never get speakers far enough into the room to benefit alone from this . I have needed valves to add extra depth (something most excel at ). If you have the ability to pull speakers out far enough ,then many solid-state amplifiers alone way give enough image depth.

I don't know what your system is but if your cd player has balanced out and your speakers are just to the warmer side of neutral then a classic one Mk2 or 3(not MK1 ,which is very poor),might be worth a listen . For me it came close to what i wanted,so much so i kept mine,rather than trade it in and it doesn't run very hot either.

Hope this is of some help .

 

Colin2040 ,i just had a new thought the Electrocompaniet amplifiers may be worth ago too . The PI 2,ECI-3 and ECI-5 are very good with great drive and a very natural ,organic sound .I like the sound a lot but have not listened to them at home yet ,only in a shop but they reminded me of classic period Jeff Roland and Mark Levinson. Costs not to bad either.

I may try to get a listen to them sometime but i am fairly happy at the present time and all Solid state has not done the trick for me in the past ,but maybe they might for you.

Regards D Louth 77

 

I think you have in a way described what I tend to look for and as you always come back to valves.Its a 3 d quality that I have never got with SS or hybrids and funnily enough I liked the Pathos and its brother the TT. Ultimately I will get back to listening to the options,I am using a 300b with Audiophysics and although it /they are very good I feel they would be better with a bit more control.Digital as you say is frequently referred to as having some valve qualities and generally produes a lot of power in a small packet.

 

if you don't need plenty of raw watts, take a look into pass' low power series called first watt.

F3 and F5 are voltage (i.e. normal) amps. i have F3 at home and i can't think of a SS amp sounding more like a SET in the best sense, and still retaining all the usually accepted qualities of the sand amps (control).

F3 costs around $2000 plus shipping and duties from the states, however as it is an open project, it can be DIY-ed for an approx a quarter of that price.

F3 is much more musical and natural sounding amp than any digital known to me.

 

The only place a class D amp should be is in the car. The background noise covers up all its imperfections. In a stand alone situation, and like a lot audio products, they sound good UNTIL you compare it to something good! Like I said before I compared a Class D to a circa 1980 NAP250. I am not a Naim user or lover. In fact I would go as far to say they (naim) are all wrong... but compared to this Class D amp, the 250 was a breath of fresh air! I thought the 250 was amazing. That's how poor the reproduction was on the Class D.

The car, that's where they belong, with a pair of 1970's goodmans speakers connected to them using an 8 track as the source.

 

Here's a thought. How about a quick sound check?
What I mean by that is that I'd be happy to invite over say half a dozen ZGers for a quick comparison. That would give us my own BC class T. Anyone wish to bring along some valves, SS and IcePower units, would be good to have a decent mix.

 

Hi Colin2040 .

I too loved the Pathos TT but my back didn't. I have also heard the Pathos In Power amps and In Control Pre . In my system and room the bass was to heavy . I have heard and read reviews which suggest it best to avoid partnering Pathos(not Classic One) with speakers that are more full bandwidth ie lots of bass . A faster slightly leaner(not bright)speaker will work well with the rest of Pathos kit.

Early on in my quest i bought and lived with a Pathos Logos for a year or so but when i heard the Classic one in comparison , i much prefered its sound in my system at the time.

Pass labs is a good suggestion ,but i don't think there will be enough power for your Audio Physic speakers which are in my experience(those i have tried) are a bit power hungry. This may be why you think your system needs more control .

300 B is a nice valve with lots of great qualities(Mid range and treble)but the bass is a bit light and power is an issue (say 18/22 Watts would be pushing it but is possible)and while valve watts behave a bit differently to solid state power is still power.

If you want to keep with valves ,you have a couple of choices you can change the speakers to something with a flat 8 ohm load or better and a sensitivity of 90 db or better . You can look at another valve amp perhaps one with Kt66/88 or 6550's or and i think this might suit better as the former valves are not Triodes an amp that uses 845 or 6c33's. My only fear is that the cost may be high as you really need about 50 watts and maybe 100 watts . Something second hand or ex-demo would save the pennies but you will have to compromise (with power you will loose some of the delicacy of the 300b triode). 2a3's are no good either as not enough power(many think they are better than a 300b valve).

The problem many of us have is the speakers we love(and i am in the same boat)are a rod to break our backs .The easier it is to drive the better to play around with(trying different amplifiers etc). Anyway sounds like ,like me you may have to much of a love for what TUBES do well .

RobM ,it will be in such applications that a lot of Class D will and is ending up (small,no heat etc). However i think you are being a bit harsh. It really is early days yet for Class D.

However if Europe gets its way ,i can see a time when we may all be forced to go down this road . Picture the scene , an audiophile sitting in the dark ,his class a amp (valve or Solid state)cooking the room ,the dial of the electricity meter spinning.
Just as the music reaches its zenith ,he's in the middle of a rapture. A knock at the door ,then a louder one . He opens the door and is met by the Electricity Usage Police . A scene like one from Farrenheit 451 ensues ,as the Police remove his amplification and pile it up in the street. Rather than books to burn they destroy his Audio and present him with a Class D amp,a tiny box. "This will do the Job and if we catch you with illegal gear we will have to kill you Sir. Have a nice day."

Regards D Louth 77...