Come on you digitalians!

Yes - I saw that too I think he put my "testimonial" on the web site aswell but haven't checked lately. That reminds me, I need to order a nother 2 Eupens - one for my new Teac T1 (my old Marantz has a fig of 8 plug) and one for the Monarchy upsampler I just bought from WM

Michael.

 

WM found my PC, and I moderated /edited it on the way out. It's about right, but not quite how I would have put it. The jist is all there though

Cheers

 

Wow, Timpy!

Did you really post that or did …….. I am licking my wounds from your comments dude. Yikes!!! You guys really do crack me up.

I asked perfectly legitimate questions over clocking, PSUs and upsampling so I don't see your problem. So the Accuphase is a transport (and not a CDP) that has had it's clock & PSU changed. So the question was: if no analogue stage was modified (because it is a transport) was the clock & PSU solely responsible for the massive change that Henry described? I don't think so. Also, what effect does upsampling have on the clocks in today's CDPs? Are the clocks used today better than they were say 10 years ago? Again, legitimate questions that seem to have provoked a negative reaction. My comments were not directed at an individual or company but merely at technology.

Personally, I don't care what Martin Colloms gets up to in his spare time. If he has had his player done, then kudos to him. However, it still does not answer my questions above and I am hoping that more knowledgable individuals on this board would be able to give a pointer to this especially to the second question about upsampling. Again for the sake of technology.

With regard to my DAC auditions, (how did you know?) yes, I intend to audition the MF Trivista 21 DAC, the Chord DAC64 which is GBP 1900.00, not cheap either (but let me worry about that) and two other DACs. Any pointers on what the MF DAC sounds like? I am assuming you've heard it btw? I'll keep you posted on the DAC auditions Timpy. If the Trivista sounds better to my ears than the Chord, then it would be a bargain at GBP 1,200 especially as second-hand Mk 1 Chord DAC64s are selling for near-enough the Trivista 21's new price. I would like to post an enquiry about the DAC64 but again, I might get shot at by DAC64 owners for simply asking legitimate questions. My fan club is getting larger by the minute.



Enjoy the music,

Lawrie

 

Lawrie, so what do you think soley caused the sudden upgrade then?, the Accuphase is 20 bit m/c from the outset, Henry was using a DCS purcell before the reworking, and the same after and cables too, so what else could I do to the transport lets see?, microvibrational removement?, a total board swop er..... maybe, a completely different power supply? maybe, a output board reclocking latch humm, bags of ERS again maybe, transport carriage mods?, a couple internal re cable with top notch gear? also.
However, since your good self asked in a nice fashion, then the difference between good crystals and top notch ones Temperate controlled crytstal oscaltors, cost wise is huge, about £30 difference, maybe a total of 5pp accuarcy
Upsampling is not clocking, it is merely interpolation of the 44.1khz rate (red book), the bit rate is the important piece, most players even my wadia (old one) use 16 bits) virtualy all todays use 24 bits, the amount of digital information retrieved from the disc more accurately if implemented properly
You can have 64 bits and 384Khz, but if the clock is wrong in what ever way, then the rest is too.
Jitter digital noise can be introduced by many ways and means, bad clock, dirty power, badly executed cables, running the same digital/analogue rails from the same supply, other rfi interference sources disruping the signal.
Now is less jitter better?, I'm not going there many have before.
Clocks are part of picture, the regulation surrounding them is as important as the clock quality.
Isolated power suppiles can make more difference than you thought possible if implemented proberly in ANY kit, for example remove the choke regualted psu's in the 3.24 dac, and ereplacing them with 'some what enhanced units' produces a serious hike in performance across the board, Power is key every thing run on it period, the better/cleaner the power the sound quality will go ona tangentel curve with it.
Henry's Accuphase recieved a Clock 4, and never connented psu, removal of the captive lead, and replaced with a IEC socket and all the a/c wires replaced with Good stuff, also I damped the top cover and floor with a quality vibration control compound, that is it in all honesty, the quality of the Accuphase is second to none, Mil-spec connectors 8mm thick ally sides, all the proper electronics, however, the clock and surround circuitry is a weak area (along with many other players) so by replacing the clock a big benefit is gained, this can be further enhanced by adding a dedicated psu to the clock, to help prevent, power contamination of that delicate circuit.
There is more I can do to Henry's transport, if he so wish's.
However after hearing an awful lot of newer 24/192khz player and transports, I prefr the older school, more music, more dynamics. more solid image and focus more powerful sound, more drive and flow.
The new ones major on detail smoothiness and openiness air and space, but a lot less drive, timing is well very odd at best.
further up the upsampling scale you go, the more the sound fleshes out.
The dac 64/and trivista are chalk and cheese, one dynamic and alive but rough around the edges (valves help here) the other smooth refined, clean open, detailed but well... I suspect if you ended up having to choose between either I feel the trivista you will plump for.
You can have the best of both, with out paying silly money, if you are prepared to be different, those that have heard, understand what the differencies are, the only way is to listen for yourself, we do a very regular basis, we have to.
Martin Colloms, has done a review of the modded player, It's due for publication very soon, you can read his words then.
I use a P1-A between my Wadia's, to act as a sample rate coverter and a jitter killer, plus a upsampler too, but I only use 48khz, how does it sound, well you'll have to ask the guy's who've listened.
I hope that helps a bit Lawrie.

 

Lawrie - I haven't heard the TriVista DAC, or for that matter, any MF DACs but I can tell you that the DAC64 is simply the most stunning sound I've heard from CD. I got mine (a MkII) s/h for £1370 on eBay - £1200 - 1400 is about the range the MkIIs are trading at, a little less (say £100 less) for the MkIs - and there's no sonic differences between the two (I've heard both in my system).

I certainly think that anyone thinking of spending £1-2K on a digital front end (or part of one) owes it to themselves to listen to the Chord. There are some people who don't rate it as high as most (WM for example ) but IMO, once you've heard it, nothing else comes close. It will definitely be my last "RedBook" front end

Michael.

 

Hi Lawrie,

Just to make it clear, in case it isn't already, the power supply that WM fitted to my Accuphase transport is solely dedicated to powering the new clock module. The player's existing power supplies have not been touched.

The extra case damping, removal of captive mains lead and replacement of some of the internal power wiring has obviously also played a part in the improvements mentioned, but I do strongly believe that it is the quality of the power supply powering the new clock that has contributed the most (and as well the new clock itself). I say this because the sound I get from CD now is much more consistant at different times of day, whereas before it would be practically unlistenable at certain times of the day when the mains electricity was of very bad quality - can still hear differences at different times/day but that's another topic.

A bit of history then, for good measure. The Accuphase DP90 transport was originally launched in 1992 and retailed for over £10k here in the UK (there was also a matching DAC, the DC91 available too for similar money). The model I have was purchased second hand in 2001. The previous owner purchased it in 1998, Accuphase ceased production of this particular model in 1997, so he must have bought one of the last few new models to be had. It's certainly a statement product for its time no doubt, but competitive with newer state of the art and cheaper components available now, probaby not (but I prefered it to Theta Data Basic [very old too] and Audio Synthesis Transcend Decade transports that I also had the opportunity to buy/dem at the time). It's not really the age of the component that count, it's the implementation. The 2003 patented power supply technology used in the clock power supply just wasn't availabe way back then, so this has been an example of better implementation of tradational ideas using modern/better tolerenced components brought up to date. Whereas before the DP90 was well behind the dCS Verdi (all IMHO of course), I believe now that it is punching its weight in the same league (although I've not had chance to do a direct comparison).

 

Lawrie

We get to hear all sorts of things these days. Some of them even stay long enough for a good play. But supposing I'd heard one, (just for instance), would there be any point in me telling you what I thought it was like?

Yes indeed, blast those swarming masses of rabid DAC64 owners, scurge of the hi-fi forums they are, causing trouble wherever they go with their mephitic odours and tempestuous boistrousness.... they'll be the first up against the wall come the revolution. Well, the second, no, maybe third perhaps

Cheers

 

Hey WM,

What a comeback? I knew you had it in you somewhere - it just had to be flushed out. That was the response I was expecting in the first place instead of the silliness and immaturity being displayed by Timpy. Unlike many individuals on this board and elsewhere, I don't spend every waking day messing around with or swapping hifi components in and out of the system chain. So when I see a claim being made by someone about clocks etc, whether negative or positive, I feel I am within my rights as a forum user (that's what forums are for) to question it further rather than just accept what I am being told. I also expect knowledgeable people to respond in an intelligent manner and on that note, hats off to Michaelab and HenryT.

Since you seem to know so much about my upgrade plans, yes, I am on the upgrade trail after having purchased new amplification several months ago. A new DAC is now just part of the equation. Would it be the MF Trivista 21, Chord DAC64 etc, etc, - only my ears will decide. Still on the upgrade trail, right now, I have the MJ Acoustics Reference 150 subwoofer at home on audition. I preferred it over the REL Strata III in my room. The Reference 150 sub was very easy to dial in, is very small and sounds bloody good. If it is still sounding good by Saturday, then my order will be going in. In a short space of time another one will be joining it subject to another audition of two subs in my room. That should be fun. Completing the upgrade madness in November will be a second-hand SME IV tonearm (from a friend) - fully rewired by SME with silver internal tonearm wiring (better than in the SME V), silver cartridge tags etc. I listened to the Origin Live Silver which sonically was a step-up from my Incognito RB300 tonearm but I expected more especially given the hype surrounding these Origin Live arms. That last upgrade should do me for a while until the next upgrade which will also probably be on the TT side anyway - perhaps a new cartridge several years down the line. Just thought you might want to know what other upgrades are in the pipeline.

Michaelab - thanks for those comments. Yes, I have heard good things about the Chord and it will certainly be auditioned at home but equally I have heard some not so good things about it. I hear it has a tendency towards forwardness which can be wearing at times. The other comment is that the treble does sound rough or dry with certain recorded material where it should sound smooth. Those experiences did not come through in your post so presumably, you haven't noticed this? Btw, are you using solid-state or tube amplification as the people who commented on these feature with the Chord DAC are solid state amplifier users.

HenryT - a very articulate and informed post as usual. Btw, I wasn't casting doubt on your claims but just wanted to ascertain that you didn't just change the clock & PSU but that more modifications were done to your player or should that be 'transport'?





Enjoy the music,

Lawrie

 

This is a deviation from the digital theme but I would be very interested to hear your sub conclusions, particularly whether you prefer one or two and your preferred room placement.

BTW, what is your relationship to www.enjoythemusic.com, if any?

 

Lawrie - the old "DAC64 is hard at the top" myth rears it's head again - I think there are two reasons why the myth came about:

1). A very early batch of DAC64s had a fault in them which did indeed make them very hard in the treble (the first Stereophile review sample was one of these, it was then substituted for a fixed unit and all was OK)

2). WM says it's hard and bright at the top at every opportunity

I'm using solid state amplification (a humble Arcam FMJ A22 integrated) for what it's worth but I think the "you need valves to soften the top end of the DAC64" is yet another myth. Dean (SCDIB) uses a DAC64 with his amazing Border Patrol 300B valve amp but I think anyone who's heard that amp would say it had anything but the warm, euphonic sound so often (perhaps incorrectly) associated with valve amps.

The presentation of the DAC64 certainly is forward though. You could never accuse it of being laid back! For me though that's part of it's appeal. It's "forwardness" comes with the way that it lets you really feel the music in a way I've heard precious few other systems do it. It's not the kind of brash, in your face forwardness that can become wearing though.

Still, give one a listen at home and see what you think

Michael.

 

Michael, that's not fair just 95% of the time, maybe I like it, but in limited doses that's all. and I'm not alone here
But it can be dropped into line, by use of an off board psu? some thing I feel we ought to demostrate next time your over mike
Using a valve pre helps. but tis dynamic and full of life and looks good too WM

 

No problem at all Lawrie. Good luck with your auditioning. BTW, do you know how much the silver wire arm re-wire from SME costs?

 

A lots been said here, but at the £700 price mark new well in IMO not a lot stands out.

i'd look for a cdp second hand that was around the £2000 mark new. Then do the added value bit. If I can get a 10year old s/h jobie, costing £25 sound better than my 1k [near !] player. Using only a few select components, a helping of tlc, and a reclock [plus psu] just think what a good cdp can be made to do !

 

Hey Michaelab,

Thanks for those comments. I am looking forward to that audition which will take place only when the Trivista 21 has been released over here - October 2003, I think. Before then, I will be keeping an open mind on the pluses and minuses of both DACs.

Henry - I must clarify my earlier comment. The SME IV that I will be buying off my friend was ordered from new with the upgraded silver wire (MCS-150) and silver cartridge tags fitted so it cost GBP 80.00. However, the cost of SME Ltd rewiring an existing SME IV or SME V arm with the MCS-150 silver wire is GBP 158.00 including postage and packing as they have to strip out the silver over copper internal tonearm wire that is in the SME V and insert the new MCS-150. The SME IV with LCIC standard copper wire sounds very different to one using the MCS-150 silver wire. The silver wiring wakes-up the arm's presentation of the music.

Btw, the Moth Group, U.K. also provide a tonearm wire 'upgrade' service for these SME arms using Incognito/Cardas wire (same as you would find on my Incognito RB300 tonearm) but costs around GBP 180.00. I hope this helps.




Enjoy the music,

Lawrie

 

You may be right. I certainly noticed a huge improvement going from a £700 Cyrus CD7 to the £2100 Meridian. What I haven't noticed is much improvement beyond that point, not for sensible money anyway. But I *am* probably deaf.

I'm not a modder by nature, but if I end up with a secondhand player out of warranty I will take a serious look at some of the options.

Early days yet.

-- Ian

 

Modding seems to be the path to true greatness, whatever level your player starts at. Certainly none of the WM's done / overseen have ever failed to improve to some degree. Clock fitting isn't hard and is definately within the realms of a soldering iron wielding home enthusiast. The same is true of most of the lubrication / cleaning / damping exercises.Many tweaks do not involve case invasion either.

Zanash's approach is ideal, finding a sacrificial player to practice on, and then move onto the more serious kit once you've decided which mods are worth doing. This will vary from player to player, but clocking, PS mods and damping seem almost universal, even to monlithic players.

As to why this sort of thing isn't done as standard, it's probably down to unit cost. Even the most impressive looking bits become cheap in largeish quantity. As for 30 quid clock crystals, they would be an expensive thing to absorb even in the most expensive players. Adding damping on a production line would almost amout to hand finishing which would become very expensive in labour alone. Therefore it's probably safe to say that a little expenditure of effort is worthwhile in all cases.

There are other mods that can be made, electrically almost everything used in production can be replaced with a higher spec component or one that you like more. People roll valves to taste already, but in reality it applies to virtually everything electronic.

Thats my take on it.

Cheers

 

Timpy, I don't think anything could have helped that Cyrus CD7...

-- Ian

 

You're probably right Ian - not enough space in the box for any clock or PSU mods

Michael.

 

Ian, a stick of TNT?, a gallon H2SO4 30,000 amps, at least the sound of cracking case work maybe give you that buzz the player doesn't Harsh maybe, standing by for incoming

 

Well, I did try setting fire to it, but that just made it smell as bad as it sounded.

-- Ian