Come on you digitalians!

Hi 7_V,

I must have missed your post as I've only just spotted it. Yeah, I will pass on my subwoofer conclusions using a single sub and also two. I guess two subs situated perhaps behind the plane of the speakers might energize the room better without additional bass boom and feel that I would get an even sound balance in the room than just using one sub (not that the sound is uneven at the moment but I've just tried to explain it as best as I could). However, I am only guessing here as I have yet to try it. Btw, I am a confirmed sub/sat man as in my experience, many full range floorstanders don't perform well in the typical average European or British living rooms. I have lost count of the number of times I have been disappointed with the performance of many of these full range floorstanders from low to high-end. In a lot of cases, one hears more of the box and less of the music or more bass less midrange etc but in a well set-up sub/sat system, the reverse is the case, more music, less box etc IMHO.

As I have stated on another forum before, with the sub/sat approach, you just position the main speakers where you get the best mids and highs etc and let the subwoofer take care of the low-end in the most suitable position in the room. I prefer to think of the sub/sat approach as 'buying the extra bass when you really need it' or a 'deferred bass purchase scheme'. In the U.S. a lot of these high end floorstanders perform well because the rooms are larger but not so in Europe. Of course there are exceptions as there are also larger rooms in Europe but the majority of the rooms are on the small(ish) to medium(ish) side. These are just my personal vibes on the sub/sat issue.

With regard to my relationship with www.enjoythemusic.com I have met a couple of guys working there but I have no professional links with them as I am not in the audio business. My only links to audio is as a music lover hence my by-line or mantra at the end of each post. I do travel to the U.K. & U.S. on a regular basis on work related issues so I do find time to pop into dealerships, hifi shows etc when I am in those countries and do get to hear new products and talk to a few people. For me, it's just fun and the extreme high-end with all it's connotations (from a personal perspective) just does not appeal to me. The guys on www.enjoythemusic.com do like reviewing products that deviate from the norm so you might want to consider getting your speakers reviewed by them especially if you are seeking U.S. exposure. Just a thought.




Enjoy the music,

Lawrie

 

Fair enough. To be honest I quite liked it when we played with it one afternoon, but I was being forced to listen to it through some Mission 782s at the time......

Cheers

 

That's excellent Lawrie, thanks for the info. Definitely a project to chalk up onto the to do board for next year I feel.

 

Lately, I've been finding that in many rooms the 'sub in a corner' approach energizes the room best (I use the Little Awesome Doubles for this). I tend to use two subs when the room/main speakers/listening position make this impractical.

Of course when it comes to the main speakers/subwoofer approach, I'm entirely in agreement with you and for the reasons you state. I designed my speakers on this basis.

Thanks for that. As you probably know, Paul Messenger is taking the speakers for a Hi-Fi+ review. I think it will come out in November. I suspect that my best strategy will be to wait until that is done and (hopefully beautifully) dusted before planning the US campaign. But these guys may be the guys to help start the ball rolling Stateside.

Steve

 

Late reply I know Ian, but what I mean is that to have CD compare with your vinyl setup I feel will need more than an old 506

I understand that you are not a tweaker, fair enough. But CD probably requires more care to extract it's potential than the old black stuff. RF is a serious problem with all digital kit IMO. The Alpha 9 has a good base, being designed around the Ring Dac technology devised by dCS. It really does respond to a good kettle lead I just feel you should hear the affects these things have before plumping for the best standard spec product in your range.

Are you at least prepared to take the challenge

 

Pepsi Challenge or Persil Challenge???

I'm quite resigned to cd never sounding as good as vinyl, and don't even mind that much. Fact is, even in the best system I've heard (Titian's), the vinyl trashed the digital, even though his four box uber-expensive cdp is probably about as high up the tree I could imagine, and the TT was in far from optimal setup state at the time. I'm buying so many records ATM it won't take long until vinyl is the primary source in numeric terms as well.

Having said that, I'm not averse to improving a stock player if it can be done without endless faffing and I know the result is going to be something I like. Having yet to spend any time at all with the stock players we're talking about, I have no idea what any of them are like.

I'll be trying a Sonneteer over a long weekend, followed by a Rega, followed then, hopefully, by something WM's suggested. If I'm drawing a blank after that, rest assured I'll seriously think about tweakier options and will be gatecrashing your house to get one of these kettle leads off you.

Let me work out what's out there and whether it's all rubbish to start with.

-- Ian

 

Ze expereement begeens

Now had a Sonneteer Byron at home since Thursday, and a Creek CD50 since yesterday. I was originally planning to just try one player at a time, but then realised that would stretch out the audition period over quite a few weeks, resulting in me dying of boredom.

The Creek is dull. Surprisingly so. Sounds to me like it's been voiced to sound like an expensive player. Very smooth and polished, but not much music. I like Creek amps, but this sounds to me like a £700 CD player aimed at people who want a "high end" sound. Most odd from a company with flat earth credentials. Not what I was expecting at all, and a real disappointment.

The Sonneteer is a *much* more interesting proposition. An archaic multibit DAC, a bog-standard Sony transport, very nice external build quality, and separate power supplies for the DAC and transport sections. Sonneteer are primarily an amp manufacturer, of course, and they seem to know how to build a good output stage. (Having said that, you would think the same of Creek.)

The result is really very good indeed. Very natural weight and scale to everything, nothing over-rich or bloated. Extremely enjoyable to listen to, tuneful, unpretentious, neither in your face nor timid. £200 more than my £700 budget, however, but allegedly much better than the cheaper Bronte (which coincidentally uses a more modern 24/96 DAC, a la the Creek).

The Creek's going back on Monday, no point prolonging its misery. The Sonneteer's staying for as long as I can keep it, as a reference for the others. Next up, on Tuesday, the Rega Planet and the (over-budget, but possible secondhand) Naim CD5.

-- Ian

 

You should have kept the Meridian, ol' bean, it's such a nice machine! I did an initial trial against the Marantz 63IIKI/DAC20 last night, and was surprised at the extra bass - I had to alter the subwoofer volume. Initial impressions are of more "presence" - I cranked up my beloved Monteverdi Vespers, and was surprised at the extra feeling of ambience. I've often heard reviewers speak of a particular piece of equipment "removing a veil from the music". I've always regarded this as reviewerspeak, but I think I've just experienced it. Moreover, my quick impression is that this non-HDCD machine performs as least as well as the HDCD-equipped DAC20 on my one HDCD. I must listen more closely. However, pleased to report that your loss is my gain.

 

Don't blow up your ears

 

Tones, it is good isn't it? First CD player I'd heard that sounded basically right. Pleased you like it.

-- Ian

 

That may improve them, Titian!

 

It's like a bleeding shop in here!

Phase 2 of the experiment is about to start. As of today, I have a Rega Planet, Rega Jupiter and Naim CD5 at home. The Jupiter was an unplanned addition, but what the heck. Tomorrow I will add the SAT CDFix to that, thanks to WM.

So, some A/B/C/D/E tests will be possible.

Rather than that, however, I will adopt my normal approach of giving each player a fair crack of the whip before deciding whether any of them are any good. About 5 minutes each should do it.

-- Ian

 

Re: It's like a bleeding shop in here!

Blimey, that SAT CDFix is now probably better travelled than the Nait 3 amp that Dom ended up with!! If it's the one I think it is, it's also had some minor under the hood mods done to it too I believe.

 

whats the SAR CDfix?
and what does it do to a Jupiter??

 

the cd fix?

I read a review where it got absolutely caned as an utter turd!... mind you, no tweakery involved in the review sample.

It'll be interesting to see what Ian thinks of them... aaah the joys of typing about music!

NB Just got paid, time to buy some mail order music!

 

It's a CD player. Sorry, my wording might be confusing. When I said "add to that" I didn't mean "add to the Jupiter", but add to the list of players.

More info here:

http://www.bladelius.com/SAT/cdfix.htm

Never seen it reviewed, know nowt about it, but will give it a go.

-- Ian

(Currently listening to the Jupiter)

 

I saw it sitting on WMs kitchen table last time I was there

AFAIK it's basically an Advantage S1 with bells on.

Michael.

 

ill be interested to hear your opinion on the Jupiter
I enjoy mine, to me the most natural sounding in the budget i had at the time (ex-dem )

 

The cdfix, is a bit of a dark horse, in some systems it sings others is no more the above average, It's packed full of all the good stuff, and it sounds pretty fair, I loaned to 7 V while 'Improving his planet', you could ask him, It has serious potential for greatiness, if I feel so inclined.
It was the CD player that Alex S and Rejoyce listen to last week at 7 V, seems eeven the 'mild earth squardon' felt it grooved WM

 

Quick decisions are rarely wrong IME, so:

Naim CD5. Frustrating. I think I get what Naim are trying to do with their CDPs, and I like quite a lot about this, but ultimately it's far too monochromatic. Maybe fractionally less forward and pushy than the 3.5 I was using, but there's very little in it. I've been using John Zorn's Masada Live in Taipei as a bit of a benchmark for all the players, because it's a stunningly good record but a pretty tiring and angular recording, not the best live Zorn in recording terms at all. Frankly, the Naim makes it rip your ears off, exaggerating the angularity at the expense of the music. Since I couldn't live with a player that can't make sense of this CD, back to the shop it goes. Great with some very well recorded CDs, dreadful with anything I've tried recorded prior to the 1950s, and it imposes far too much of its own character on everything, which means you end up playing CDs you know it will like, rather than what you actually want to listen to.

Rega Planet. WM's a bit harsh about this. Lots to like about it, not least the fact it's £500. I don't know another player available new at that price that gets the basics right, which this does. A little bit lean, and slightly recessed and lacking in life, but not bad at all. Not choosy about what you feed it, unlike the Naim. Blown into the weeds by the (more expensive) Sonneteer, however, which seems to have become my reference. Back to the shop with it tomorrow.

Rega Jupiter. Way over budget at £1K, essentially a Planet with dual DACs and more power supplies. Quite a bit better than the Planet, fuller and richer with good bass extension, better in that respect than the Sonneteer. Good enough to stay for now, I should be able to keep hold of it for a week. Different from the Sonneteer in ways that are hard to define. It's more similar to my old Meridian than the Sonneteer, and I suspect more neutral, but I like the Sonneteer's peculiarities very much. The Sonneteer is definitely more Naim-like, but without the sonic irritations.

Typically, both players I've liked so far are over budget, but dealer discount shouldn't mean seriously so. I've deducted 10 points from myself for breaking my own rules.

Interestingly, these players sound more different from one another than I was expecting. I sort of assumed they'd all sound pretty much the same, but they do use different DACs which I suspect is the main reason for the differences. The better players are also the ones with separate power supplies for the digital and analogue sections.

Looks like it'll come down to one of Sonneteer/Jupiter/SAT.

-- Ian