Copland 6 channel valve pre-amp!

Been having a look at this recently:



The Copland CVA 306. Looks like one of a kind. It's a six channel valve pre amp offering, no doubt, very good stereo performance and the ability to take the 5.1 outputs from DVD SACD players. There is no processing of course but your DVD/SACD player does all this and many will also decode DD and DTS.

So, in conjunction with 2 or 3 power amps, you would be able to enjoy superb multi channel sound with no compromise when listening in stereo. The only downside is no processing (DPLII etc.) for analogue sources but I would say this is a small price to pay.

A great product and, whilst not cheap, at £1399 its not ridiculous compared to the higher end AV processors.

More details here: http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/stoneaudio/products/details.asp?product=579

This then got me thinking why have the likes of Rotel, NAD & Marantz not started putting 5.1 inputs and pre outs on their stereo amps? This would remove the need (that many have had to follow) of using a bolt on AV amp which might be acceptable for movies (although in many cases the DVD player could do the decoding) but probably doesn't offer the audiophile performance ideally needed for DVD-A and SACD.

So, you get an integrated amp stick a 5.1 channel input on it and pre outs for all channels - you then add a stereo power amp for the rears and another one for the centre if you are using one. For DVD-A or SACD set ups you could easily run without a centre. They could be really helpful and start making matching 3 channel power amps.

It strikes me that what I'm suggesting can't be that difficult as all the amp has to do is apply volume control over six channels instead of two.

They could also do the same with their pre amp only models i.e. copy what Copland have done but do it on a cheaper basis i.e. a Rotel RSP1066 but without any of the processing - how much would that need to cost £500 - £600? And it would almost certainly sound better in stereo to boot!

Maybe I'm missing something but I reckon this kind of thing could be extremely popular with the hifi buffs who don't wish to compromise stereo playback but who do have an interest (albeit to a lesser extent) in DVD-V and/or DVD-A/SACD

What do YOU think?

Matt.

 

sony did a 5.1 input pre but i don't think it was that popular even in japan. i think there is a stigma atatched to 5.1 when viewed by the stereo comunity (as tag may have found out). a percieved loss of quality which may not be true but is certainly a nagging doubt at the back of the mind.
there are also the practical considerations. for a given price the quality will always be better for 2 chanels than for 5.1 as the component quality can be better for that price when you are using less of them.
for videophiles and a/v guys the shoe is on the other foot there's no processing in the amp so they are stuck with whatever is in the player which often is either minimal or non existent. things like bass management, channel delays and other processing may be anathema to us but they are the staff of life for your home cinema enthusiast so you are trying to converge 2 markets that have radically different ideas about what makes a sound 'good'. perhaps the best compromise yet is the yamaha dsp e-800. it does the processing, bass management, etc. the a/v guy wants. in a seperate box that can be put a way away from the stereo guys mega pre-amp. it also has 3 channels of amplification to compliment your existing stereo pair so you don;t need to faff about with more power amps (although thanks to some pre-outs you can if you want to). it is getting a bit old hat now though with no dpl2, 6.1 or 7.1 so there is definately a market void to be filled there. the alternative of course is an a/v amp with pre-outs although this seems wasteful as you're not using the front 2 channels of the a/v amp. for me the latter would be the ideal solution however i currently use an e-800 and am very happy.

cheers

julian

 

Comments noted Julian but what I was driving at more was the DVD-A/SACD side of things where, unless it's just out of curiousity, you really want better amplification (pre and power) than a bolt on budget AV receiver can give.

This kind of thing is never going to appeal to the real AV enthusiasts - it was more the stereo fans who presently use budget AV amps bolted onto their hifi amps that I was thinking of.

It's also worth noting that, as far as I am aware, pretty much all of the DVD/SACD and DVDA players also offer onboard DD and DTS decoding (with bass management and time alignment) and most of these will offer decoding quality on par with a budget AV amp - and the higher quality machines (Sony 999ES etc) will offer better quality decoding.

I can't see how quality would suffer - having 6 inputs/outputs should not degrade the sound any more that having 2 inputs/outpus instead of 1 should.

The "you can get more for your money if you only buy two channels" argument always grates with me a little as it's such a blo*dy obvious statement. By the same token, you could argue that you could spend twice as much on amp and speaker if you went for a mono set up over a stereo one - it all depends upon what you want.

An (admittedly dodgy) analogy is a bloke who has just spend £10K on a car and then someone says "you could have got a much better/faster vehicle if you'd spent £10K on a motorbike" - well, yes you could, but the guy wanted a car. So, if someone wants a multi channel set up then what they could have got if they spent the same on a stereo only set up is irrelevant to them.

Matt.

 

Maybe Arcam saw this and took notice.

Their new A90 integrated amp features the following:

"The amplifier platform is also designed to accommodate an additional 7.1 multi-channel module that can extend its capability to multi-channel audio applications such as DVD-Audio when used with a suitable matching Arcam power amplifier. "

So, a stereo hifi amp with a 7.1 input for DVD-A/SACD. Just add a power amp or two (or, for 5.1, Arcam's 3 channel power amp).

Makes sense to me - wonder if other manufacturers will follow?

Matt.

 

Matt, the Copland is a good piece of kit, and goes some way to redress the balance between av/2 channel preformance, plus the added benefit of multi channel flexibility, having had the pleasure of listening to one for an extended period, it is indeed quite fair, ad will surprise a few hardened 2 channel guys, however, for me it lacks the drive & life I love.
Kit used with it, Bryston 4 bst, Wadia 830, sony 777 thingy, arcam dv27 +, it did favour the sacd slightly more in my eyes, again the valve mid range transparency giving it's best here, still on the day the wadia 830 driving the Bryston direct was the king, but those looking for a good effort at multi channel should investigate it

 

If you had a power amp with a high input sensitivity (rare as rocking horse shit its true!)...

You could have a passive 5 channel/2 channel pre.

That really would in no way impede the 2 channel performance.

Difficulties would be I suppose in getting the AV kit happy with a lower input signal.

ideas ideas..
Chris

 

technics did a suc1000 battery powered pre, with 6ch in and preouts for 3 stereo power amps

as did myryad, if i remember correctly

 

Sorry - I think I may have confused a few people by bringing this old thread back to life.

The point I was making is that Arcam, bless them, have actually brought out what I was suggesting (back when the thread started) would be a good idea for hifi fans who may have an interest in DVD-A/SACD or who perhaps want DD/DTS sound for DVD's without the hassle of bolting a budget AV amp/receiver on to their stereo amp.

The downside of this set up is that you wouldn't be able to apply any processing (eg DPL/DPLII) to analogue sources. However, I'd say this is easily offset by the fact that DVD-A/SACD would go straight into the hifi amp without first having to go through an AV amp/receiver.

So, basically, you buy an Arcam A90 then add the 7.1 input board and a 3 channel power amp - hey presto, multi channel but with all the processing done outside the amp.

Matt.

 

Sure, it's one way of doing things that might appeal, particularly if you were primarily interested in DVD-A and/or SACD multichannel music but for movies, how good are the on board DD/DTS processors on universal players? Probably no better than a mid-range receiver and nothing like as good as a separate processor such as a Rotel RSP-1066 or Cyrus AV8 - not to mention the likes of Tag, Lexicon, Krell etc.

I don't think many of them do proper bass management and if they do it's not nearly as configurable as on a standalone processor.

Personally, I'm going the standalone processor and 3ch. power amp route and I'm not going to get into multichannel DVD-A or SACD until they sort out a standard digital interface for it. It's bad enough having 5 analogue ICs hooking up processor to power amps never mind another set connecting the player to the amp/processor!

Michael.

 

I am with Michael in this one... :MILD:

 

Hang on, I agree with Michael too and, as you probably know, I went down the processor/power amp route ages ago. However, I'm talking here about either real hifi fans with just a passing interest in home cinema or hifi fans who are interested in DVD-A/SACD but not home cinema.

On board DD/DTS processing within a half decent DVD player will almost always give you reasonable bass management and time alignment. As for sound quality – I agree you probably won't get anything better than you get from a budget AV amp BUT that's the point – give a hifi amp 5.1 inputs and you don't need to employ an AV amp at all – decode in the player and feed the 6 analogue signals straight into the hifi amp – 6 phono leads versus a whole extra unit/the hassle of getting volumes aligned etc.

As for DVD-A/SACD, yes a digital transfer method would be nice but, even if a standard is ever agreed, you are then talking about replacing/upgrading AV processors to be able to decode these high resolution formats. So, prior to all this happening (if it ever does) you need a decent analogue bypass and, for those without decent AV processors, going straight into 5.1 inputs on a decent stereo amp rather than going through a budget AV amp has got to be a good idea IMO.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here (honest) – I just think it's a case of hats off to Arcam for coming up with a new approach that gives hifi users more flexibility/futureproofing. I wonder if any other manufacturers (Rotel, Marantz etc.) will follow suit.

Matt.

 

You have a point for those who cant wait to have the latest formats, me, I will live with CDs and DVDs until they sort out the digital connection... :MILD: