Dem results - and another load of advice!

Well, before the dem of the Dynaudios this morning, we went to the pub last night. For some random reason, my housemate decided we should try the Epos' on his Sound Org Z522 stands...

What issued forth was FAR superior musicality from my NAIT3 - even with the limited power. These stands make the PROPER Epos ones sound "broken".

Anyway, did the dem at Audio Excellence this morning, and was totally unimpressed. The Dynaudios sounded total shite on the back of the Naim stuff - total contrast from the last time I heard the combo (in Reading).

I went into Sevonoaks looking for speaker stands, and, err, then walked out with a Naim NAC112/NAP150 ex-dem on home dem.

So far, I'm non-plussed! The amps have more grip, but somehow sound soulless and in many respects not as good as my 9 year old, unserviced NAIR (olive style). Maybe it's a warmup, but for £1200 I don't think these amps are cutting it.

I'm seriously considering taking them back, getting the stands off the Net, and getting an older Olive-style 140/72/hi or something similar - around the £800 mark max.

What do you guys think?

The NAIT3 wasn't OBVIOUSLY struggling with music provided we used the non-Epos stands, and kept within respectable volume levels, so I'm open to suggestion.

Could do with saving the cash to be honest, but the pre-power I have on loan does bass control and space very well indeed. It's just a bit hollow, and therefore I don't feel it's a £1200 (£1000 with NAIT trade-in) improvement....

 

how did the other speakers demmd do, dom?
I have an el cheapo nait 3, and like it a lot, very rhythmic, works well in my room, TBH, I think the issues are probably room and setup dependant.
I am also looking for some el cheapo speakers to match the nait well.

I liked the rega kytes loads, so may look for elas, seems we have similar taste, Dom.

I can't see why some people find naim amps thin and bright, sure it has a bit of mid energy, but the top is rolled off, and its SOOOO musical.

 

i suspect the main reason is that many times people have heard them with Naim speakers which are unmitigated shite in my not so humble opinion. I have quite liked many of the Naim systems I have heard using non naim speakers. (A decent tube amp blows Naim kit away though)

 

We park our cars in the same garage Robbo SL2s are the WORST sound I've ever heard - even my Sony speakers were better in the areas that matter to me...

Ll Col Data - the Kytes on a Nait3 IME are better than the Elas! Mind you, my Elas need new tweeters really. We went through Elas, Kytes, and the Epos last night and the Kytes actually time better than the others, but have NO bass (well, no real bass anyway!).

 

3rded with naim spx, had an unfortunate pair of sbls, horrid, shredding sound, really anxious. never naim spx.

edited to add: its official, the naim amp is not bright at all, quite mellow in fact, I have a brit tuned jap amp for a similar price that was very well reviewed, some nice points, but the naim is definately better, timing, bass ,thwack, musicality, and less bright, its just so right. Its an odd presentation that you get used to, and then can't go back to others.
Definately nothing harsh about these amps, said by a die hard triode person.
And I think they can only mellow more with age.
Pah, tho thanks to the high gain it hums more that a valve amp and my feet.

Curious about the dyns as I have looked at a pair of sh 40s.
I think there isn't any difference with naim amps by and large, apart from the size of the transformer, so I don't really think the main sound will change, you can still get the naim sound for all £250 of a nait 3, if your room is smallish, and you will have one of the most infectious natural sounding amps there are. My tip to all would be amp buyers.
I think the differences are down to component ageing and bedding in really.
As far as spx, I am trying to find something with some of the character of naim amps myself, and am drawn to the same ones you are mentioning, rega, dyn's, proacs, eposes, and linns, all the traditional ones.
perhaps b/w, 602s or cdm1s, I don't think they make a BAD speaker.

 

dom,
it sounds like you like the olive style sound so a 72/hi/140 would be a nice choice although if you can possibly stretch to a 250 (even an old chrome bumper model) then i'd go for that instead of the 140. also if getting a 250 means going for an older 32.5 it may be worthwhile doing that instead.
i have heard sbl's sounding quite nice once you acclimate to their sound however in general i'm not a big fan of naim speakers either.
cheers


julian

 

Dom,

did you try your Epos speakers on these new stands in YOUR MATES ROOM?

I emphasize this last point, because if the revelation from the stand didnt happen in your own house, then all you've proved is that the Epos speakers can sound great in an alternative acoustic!!

If he brought the stands round your house when you heard the big difference that is very different.

If I am right on the first point, Id suspect that the Epos speakers in your mates room with the even bigger amps would sound even better still!!!!!!!!! (why not take them round and try?)

NB
Since you're living in rented accomodation, why not just change flats at the end of the tennancy?

 

He's my housemate, so we moved his stands into the lounge. Admittedly, this was after a sesh in the pub, but we went through the Elas, Kytes and Epos', and the Epos on his stands sounded the best.

Here's what I put on PFM forum:
....Tony - yep, the "upgrade" is not £1000 better - straight from cold, I stuck Massive Attack's "Teardrop" on and the bass slam on the NAIT was only slightly less than on the 150 - very odd...

Maybe I really do prefer the euphonic distortion of the NAIT - or maybe the dirty and raw, but fun Olive sound agrees with me more than the super-refined "New Naim"(TM) sound???

I prefer the CD5 as a source, mind you.

Is a 72/hi/140 rougher sounding than a NAIT? ...as I'm tempted to order either a 72/140 (to start me off - maybe a 92 to save on the preamp since the NAIT3 sounds good enough) and then get a hi later? I don't think I can stretch to a 250 (I'm guessing a 140+ is more gutsy than a 150?). Maybe a cheapo pre with a better amp such as a 180 is a better bet?

The only track the 112/150 was comfortably better on yesterday was the last track on Infected Mushroom's B.P. Empire - all "real" music, from Kate Bush to Morrissey, sounded hollow on the 112/150.

It goes back later today. BTW - it's an ex-dem pairing, so the bur... I mean, warm up, isn't so much of an issue as with a new unit.

Of course, there's ONE other variable. My housemate's borrowed speaker stands sounded better than the open frame Epos ones. However, where the top spikes touch the speaker cabs, there are veritable canyons in the wood from the spikes biting in. If I was to Polyfiller these holes in, will the sound get sharper, or bassier?? I assume both, since the cabs will be better isolated. It seems to work for SBL rebuilds does it not?

 

dom,
you could easily find a 250 for under 800 quid. i've seen serviced chrome bumper 250's for 500 before (and in the last couple of days too). a 32.5 could be had for 200 and a hicap for between 300 and 400. so at most thats 1400 in all (at the most expensive and still 100 under your 1500 max budget). if you do a bit of looking about you could easily come in under 1000 ukp which means you could go for a 72 at 400 ish quid rather than a 32.5 at 200. get yourself a good sniper and go e-baying.

edited to add: just looked on hi-fi for sale there is a 250 for 850, a 72 for 300 and a hi-cap for 320ono on there so 1470 in all without any haggling.
cheers


julian

 

Dom, for £800 you get a proper amp a Evo 2 stateside is $1k so with shipping and import about £820 max.

 

Evo 2 as in Bel Canto? I take it that would be second hand? The thing that'd put me off is power conversion/backup if it was grey imported... If that's the one Henryt has, I know damn straight the Epos' LUUUUURVE that one! Awesome sound Barring my other reservations, I'd have none on sound quality terms

Julian - maybe a 180/72 might be in price range (the 250 will be totally pushing it!). I can then factor in £250-ish for the NAIT (since it was checked over and had new phono boards fitted back last May).

 

Why not get the Nait converted to a pre, and think about the power amp. You could give a 140 a go, and if you don't like it have your Nait converted back and sell the 140.

 

Audio Excellence seemed very reticent to do that - trying to say the parts MAY not be available. I think I'll ask Sevonoaks later, while I'm returning the other amps.

I think the 112 is the weak part - I'm convinced a 150 with a better pre could be the ticket if I had to go for a latter model.

Alex S on PFM has a 32.5/110 going (recently serviced) so I'm half tempted to get that on spec and try it out, with either Flatcap or Hicap to follow next year A 110 is basically an older 140 in terms of power IIRC???

 

They don't need parts they just need to remove a link somewhere. Ask Les on pfm he'll know

 

This would be an excellent option.

I believe the main difference between the 110 and the 140 is that the 140 has a doubled up power supply so the channels have their own set of caps, rectifier and transformer winding.

Cheers

Jason

 

The 140 has better power rectification, it would be worth your while seeking one out. I paid £275 for mine, you should be able to get one for about £250-£300, look out for a 62 pre as well, they're about £150. The accepted opinion amongst the non-hardcore is that the 32 Is a little bright with CD and it has lots of boards inside that plug and unplug. My experience with a Quad 33 that had this system is that as it ages it could be a bit of a pain. The 62 was an updated 42 with more inputs, and is also better for modding. It looks smarter as well!

 

Where can you get those off the Net ?

Should be getting my Epos' today. When I demmed last week they were on the Sound Org. stands and sounded great. I don't think my Nexus 6's will cut the mustard anymore!

 

Dom, as I said on PFM, if you can get the 32.5/110 from London to Exeter you can borrow them. FWIW I think the 110 is more 'Nait-like' and bouncy than a 140 although the 140's probably better in the conventional sense - Forgive me, but I don't always agree with the Naim hierarchy, preferring a 32.5 to an 82!

Alex

PS Most advice you're getting from all 3 forums is to keep the speakers - so I'd definately do that.

 

Alex S - did you say the FABLED WORD London? I'm in Reading all weekend, and was actually thinking of a run over to MVE in London on Saturday morning! This could be a plan... - how long would I be able to borrow them for (as it would probably be early-mid next month when I'd next be up - are you Tube-able easily, and do you have the boxes??? I'm insured for a grand worth of stuff so if it got nicked we'd be covered...

Don't worry guys - the Epos' stay. Definitely. They were hinting at stuff with the 112/150, and on Henryt's rig they were amazing! I've filled the holes in the cabs with Ronseal wood stuff and so that should be dry later

The stands I was referring to are Sound Org ones - I have the original Epos' open frames on my 14s. The Sound Org (Z5-something) with Epos' are VERY VERY good. I'm still planning on upping to those - with or without pre power - in the next few weeks, unless the sealing up of the holes solves the Epos' stands thing (I suspect the Sound Org ones, whilst helping by being slightly taller, also sounded better because the spikes were biting into "new" wood).

 

Dom,

I can do late Sat morning - say 12 onwards. I'm not a million miles from Bermondsey tube from which I could pick you up (is there something from Reading to Waterloo instead of Paddington - I could also pick you up from there?). I have a box for the 110 but not for the 32.5 although a do have lots of boxes it would fit into. You could borrow the amps until at least mid Sept unless mine break.

Alex