Demagnetising LP's & cd's

Richard, your rants are always about you. No one else complains. Unlike you, they make the best of a situation and move on.

I speak up for Naim and Linn because I've worked with both organizations and have never experienced anything like you've suggested--quite the opposite. Therefore, if your allegations are true, it should be pointed out the problems were caused by individuals within the company and not policy. I expect you'd appreciate someone "defending" yourself or NVA if the same allegations were made.

P.S. convincing defense of your anti-ad hominem stance with the daft sod comment.

 

No, I am with Richard on this one. The Linn and Naim hegemony (in the UK at least) was pretty brutal to rivals in the 1980s and early 1990s. And its followers too - Having a Linn rep say "I'll play it again because you aren't listening right." pretty much ended my link with the Flat Earth school. But it was in the 1980s and early 1990s. Its dominance was already waning 20 years ago.

For most of us, it's old news.

 

I still think attacking a manufacture is a pretty lame defense for lack of sales by other manufacturers during any given time period.

Will you folks blame Apple (the iPod) for the lack of sales in today's climate? I doubt it. Just as in the days of tubes and corner horns, a decade later with Japanese receivers with knobs galore and blue meters and finally with Linn and Naim and the Tune Dem, people choose what they want as tastes change.

 

The main reason it is being discussed is the left over effect it has on todays market and it is 35 years since it started!! you think that is an insignificant time in this industry!

To see the left over effect you only have to go to Pink Fish, and to see one of the dinosaurs still in action you need to look no further than Flatty. The brainwash still exists and it is polluting the creation of the new industry. And because there are fewer brainwashed sheep left to fleece so the prices have gone up to ridiculous levels to try and compensate.

You see your comments are US specific, we never had the dominance of the Japanese receivers. That period I refer to as the time of the discounters, and it only lasted at the most 10 years, and receivers were never very important in it, we went for seperates. And because that time was dominated by the discounters products became produced to a price and the better Japanese product was not imported or in very small quantities. An example - in the US there are many Pioneer PL-71 in the UK next to none. In the US there were few Pioneer PL-12D but the UK is flooded with them. This was price and magazine driven and the success of the discounter at the expense of the Radio and TV shops was the *marketing* hole that allowed the flat earth to happen.

 

BLACKDOG, who said in a very well known newspaper here in England :
"every one who still owns a turtable is the train spotter of the hi-fi world" your guess.

 

three guesses?

 

My last question on the matter fellas...

If it's been twenty years since Linn or Naim played any sort of role in the market, don't you think it's time to move on, bury the hatchet, smoke the peace pipe, etc ?

The playing field seems pretty level to me. If anything companies like Linn and Naim have a disadvantage now with higher overhead.

regards,

dave

 

It was an extremely effective machine, though I don't apply the blame for the harm done to both companies in equal measure, certainly from the punter viewpoint and place most of the blame with Linn.

I spent about 20 years worshiping at the alter of the Linn/Naim church, to the point where I created and hosted an online library for the old Flat Response and Review publications. In my world for many years, they were right and everyone else just didn't understand. Many thousands were also 'signed-up' in those days and many still are.

Somes of the sales tactics were incredibly hard sell. Not the sort of in your face pressure you might expect from someone selling gas services at your door, no this was on a whole new level.
I recall once visiting a well establish South London FE dealer to listen to a pair of Rega Ela loudspeakers. I'd heard them previously but wanted to hear them again and to compare with a few alternatives. The dealer gladly assisted but about 30 minutes into the dem I was asked to visit the top floor demo room in order to hear the flagship Linn active system. The room was small and into it had been shoehorned a sprawl of racks and boxes feeding Keltiks. I was asked to listen and for my comments. The purpose, I was told, was to illustrate 'where I should be aiming in my system journey'.
I didn't much like what I heard. A rather bloated and forced sound that would have given me a headache pretty quickly. So I relayed my thoughts to dealer and after a 5 minute pause to adjust the active crossover (basically cut the overblown bass) I was asked to listen again. Yes that's a bit better I said - 'WRONG' proclaims the dealer - I've removed bass, so I've removed information and damaged the music.
The net result of this was that I left feeling I was dealing with idiots, bought my Elas but never went there again.

Not all were so bad though.
I was a customer of the London based Sound Organisation through much of my flat earth period and here the messages were far more subtle and effective. I wouldn't criticise the Sound Org. They at least had the good sense to back-off if it became clear that you were not particularly on message.
I went there to buy Kans and ended up with Gale 301s, Onix instead of Naim Nait etc, AT MC instead of Linn etc and they were happy to accommodate without a lecture.

As Richard rightly mentions, the fall-out from these times is still around today, and as a participant in the whole malarky, albeit at the user end but someone following the press reporting closely throughout, it perhaps explains why I'm so determined to challenge spin and bias today. It should also help understand the call for more objectivity in the way products are presented for assessment. The final stage will always remain subjective but how we get there, how we present products on a level playing field is vital.

There is however a danger in holding such a negative view of the unbridled bias and marketing in operation during this period. The danger is to also attack the things that were good, and I'd still argue today that many Linn and Naim products are/were excellent. I would happily use and enjoy an LP12 in place of my current P9 or Naim 72/140 in place of the Quad amps . No problem at all - it was all decent kit. It just wasn't world beating and it certainly didn't represent any sort of new dawn.

 

Sorry Nando, but I'm clueless as to what you're on about.

regards,

dave

 

who owns linn, and got his name with his famous t/t's

 

Well, yes. The Apple iPod did have a marked effect on sales. This can be clearly seen in the difference between total separates audio sales to year end 2004 and year end 2005 (Xmas 2004 was considered 'iPod Xmas' in the UK). GfK stats up to 2004 suggest audio sales by volume were stable and by value were increasing in line with inflation. GfK stats at 2005 show a 30+ point drop in separates audio sales by volume and around a 20 point drop in sales value. The sales of 'MP3 portables' at this time showed a 180% increase in sales volume and almost a 500% increase in value.

Since iPod Xmas, separates audio has not regained its market share. MP3 player sales continued to increase until they too dropped almost 80% in a season as people moved to 'smartphone' sales.

You are right in suggesting people choose what they want as tastes change. And in the case of the iPod, the hi-fi industry was just supplying the wrong product to meet the latest trend. Aside from joining the iPod dock race, not much you can do about that - just ask Sony; it had the demonstably better portable player, cheaper, with better sound, interface, battery life, supplied earphones, the works. The iPod outsold it by something like 150:1.

Those tastes can be shepherded and manipulated. In the case of the Linn/Naim axis, that meant unstinting support by magazines and dealers. If you were in the gang, hurrah. If you weren't, hit the road. just how powerful this effect was can be seen with the reviews of Dynavector cartridges. In the 1980s, Dynavector was distributed by someone with no connection to the 'gang' and the reviews it received in the Flat Earth end of the UK press effectively made Dynavector leave the UK retail market for the better part of a decade. When it was redistributed by Pear Audio (run by ex-Linn guy John Burns), suddenly exactly the same cartridge reviewed by the same person in the same tonearm goes from being 'worse than an AT-95E' to 'one of the best money can buy'.

If the only difference between a review that slaughtered the product and one that drips with glowing praise is the person distributing that product, what does that say about the reviewing process at the time? As the review might be the only source of information about that cartridge (because until Pear Audio took it on, there was no way the Dynavector range was going to turn up in about half the shops in the UK), do you really think the hi-fi buff back then had much chance to experience the product.

As to the Tune Dem, half a minute of Stockhausen or Ligeti shows that has more to do with PT Barnum than genuinely moving audio forward. Hell, even Blue Rondo a la Turk and Take Five show the plot holes in the Tune Dem - it's not all in 4/4 time, despite the enforced actions of the foot tapping salesperson. And yes, sometimes that is the sort of music I listen to, thanks very much Mr. 'If it isn't in common time, it isn't real music' Linn Tune Dem guy.

 

Ahh...OK...got it.

Does he not have a right to change his mind if he finds another delivery system that he prefers?

 

Yes and no. A lot of the dissatisfaction in today's hi-fi buyers in the UK stems from being pushed into directions that - with hindsight - they didn't need or want to take.

Are you really going to be that keen to walk into a dealer today if the last time you did, they made you feel like some kind of pond-scum because you hadn't spent several thousand pounds on the latest upgrades? Or are you more likely to say to anyone you meet that you should never go near a hi-fi shop? Not all dealers use the heavy-handed approach, but that kind of mud sticks to this day.

In fairness, I have nothing against these companies. They did what any company would do to help keep its market share and they got there first. The early days of any big company could be viewed as one man with a vision trying to crush the life out of his competition.

Ultimately, though, you're right - the only way to move on is to put these past events where they belong.

 

SO were my favourite dealer when I lived in London. I'd bought my LP12 from a well-known N1 dealer (after wanting to hear a Rega); the saleman was very effective, and partly because of the hard sell ("you may as well make the major leap now as opposed to buying the Rega, because you'll want the LP12 eventually"), and the magazine bias, that's where my journey started. I couldn't get on with the Naim amps though, no matter how he tried. I ended up at SO to hear the Exposure stuff, and they let me try 3 alternatives, without any hard sell. That left a great impression on me. Other retailers I used at the time (e.g. when servicing the LP12) were pushing one route to Nirvana, and it really put me off.

At this point I started to buy 2nd hand gear (quicker jumps up the ladder). The beauty of this route is that you got to hear so many different combinations without bias; the dealer still wanted to sell you stuff, but not brands. Hifi Choice in W London served me well in those days, as have similar retail models since. The last bits of new kit I've bought have all been via direct dealing with the manufacturer. At the moment, I can't see a good reason for buying new equipment from a High Street retailer; there are too many other options out there.

 

They had quite a public 'falling out' with Linn, in the late 90's I think it was?

They were never as good after the move.

Really, a 72/140?

The hiss wouldn't bother you?

 

What a varied experience people had.

I lived in the North East, and we only really had one dealer ''Lintone Audio'' - they had about three branches.

They sold Audio Innovations valve amps, Naim amps, Ruark speakers, Castle, Tannoy, and others.

The first system I heard there was Epos ES11 with Audio Innovations Alto and a Marantz CD player. Flat , round, and Japanese all at the same time.

Maybe the shop owners were good people, maybe they just had the good sense not to try '' all this crap'' with a bunch of Northerners - a good idea.. you really, dont want to try that...

 

Into the old Impulse H2s, yes. In fact that was the trigger to replace the 72 and 135s at the time.
Not into the Rogers 3/6 I"m listening to at this very moment or the ESLs - not into most speakers in fact.

I recall reading about the falling out at the SO.
I think also at that time they were promoting the Roksan Xerxes as a valid alternative to the Linn, the RB300 against the Ittok and were even saying nice things about the SME V. Times were changing by then.

Mention of the words Audiolab, Cyrus or Musical Fidelity though would still produce a rather unpleasant diatribe!

 

Fnuckle,

All this "hate" regarding manufacturers for succeding is the bit that I don't get. It's the same with Microsoft vs The Rest of The World. For Christ's sakes, it's only hifi and computers.

If the magazines drove what the shops stocked in the UK then the problem lies with the shop. Hifi reviewing magazines have always been and will always be a complete waste of paper. If a shop knuckled under to what a magazine dictates instead of demonstrating the difference between gear, then they deserve to flounder and go out of business. We can agree, the consumer is the loser in this case but let's put the blame where it really belongs which is shops that are too lazy to overcome a hurdle.

Regarding the tune dem and odd time signatures unrelated -I disagree. I find Messiaen and Varese even more enjoyable with my Naim rig.

regards,

dave

 

Also into Royd Apex and Doublets.

I was quite shocked to hear a 552/500 system hiss just as badly into a pair of Kudos C10s', at a dealers, not that rich!

 

If someone feels "pressured" to buy and knuckles under, thats' a personal problem which the individual needs to address with therapy. The consumer always had the upper hand (money) and always will.

I've never lived closer than two hundred miles of more than two dealers. If I wanted to try something neither dealer stocked, I'd call the manufacturer and get a phone number to the nearest stockist. I'd have the dealer ship the item to me for evaluation and either return or buy it. Occasionally I'd drive as much as five hours one way to dem gear.

Regardless, the telephone and automobile were available in 1970 and are still working solutions. I'm sure the same existed in the UK then and now. Lack of easy availability and "pressure" is no excuse.

regards,

dave