Does Krell KAV400xi do PRat?

I have a chance to buy a very slightly used Krell KAV400xi 300W integrated for about half the cost of a NAIM 202/200 system.
I would love to have NAIM but I think the price is over-the-top so if I can get the "in your face, aggressive" PRat presentation that NAIM does from the Krell, I'd have to go for it.

Do any of the USA forummers have any comparative experience with this Krell and NAIM that they could comment on?

 

I haven't compared the Krell KAV-400xi to any Naim gear but I did compare it to the SimAudio i-5 and the answer to your question is a definite NO.

The Sim i-5 has PRaT in spades but the Krell was comparatively dull and lifeless. Incredible power and bass control and a very good amp but not in the same league as the Sim for musical enjoyment. Just my 2c.

Michael.

 

I'm gonna have to ask (and look like a complete tool in the process) but what is PRat? I assume it's to do with the musical presentation.

 

Pace Rhythm and Timing. Basically, a meaningless acronym used by some to describe their presentational preferences. Ask any of them what, precisely, they mean by it, however, and you'll get a load of different answers.

-- Ian

 

hence the use of the term PRaT??

 

Ian, I think you're being a little harsh. The same criticism could be levelled at pretty much any term used to describe hifi.

I find it hard to believe that any system (especially with a digital source that wouldn't have speed stability issues like a TT might) could get PRaT wrong in the literal sense - even the cheapest cr@p from Dixons will play the notes with the correct time intervals (as on the recording)

Still, I use the term to describe a fairly nebulous and hard to define sense of musical involvement which is definitely something I look for.

However, when people say things like "it times really well" I have no idea what they mean. I've never heard a system that doesnt' "time". The only place where "timing" can even be slightly off is in the bass. However, it's not really "out of time" but merely muddy and muffled bass that leads to an uncertainty about the exact occurance of the note.

Michael.

 

any idea where in the UK, preferably Edinburgh/Glasgow or even London, it can be heard?

I've just been reading Google-found, reviews and there is no doubt that its liked by lots of folk - and with weak dollar ...

 

johnMak,
if you can get one that cheap then i'd say it would be a no brainer to buy it. give it a good try out and then if you don;t like it sell it on. i'm not sure what a second hand 400 will go for but there is talk of a bit of a drought of them at the moment so you'd think their second hand value would be quite robust.
just a thought.
cheers


julian

 

I think the problem is that the original poster has used PRaT with the inference that this term is widely and exactly understood and people will know what he means and be able to answer him. This probably won't be the case judging by the responses.

As michaelab says, I think much of what people feel they understand about PRaT may well come down to bass performance i.e. a 'tight' rather than 'boomy' bass. Maybe things like a wide dynamic range also?

 

Try this.

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/23/index.html

 

Absolutely. PRaT is more annoying than most such vaguenesses, however, as people who use it often seem to think they're being more precise than they really are. (This is not a comment aimed at Naimies BTW, I'm getting bored with the tedious anti-Naim sub-threads that seem to be springing up all the time ATM.)

I'd agree with that, timing being slow nearly always seems to be synonymous with bloated, muddy, bass IME, and conversely, bass-light systems can sound artificially fast, which quickly becomes annoying. Beyond that, I have no idea what it means to say a system doesn't time properly. In any event, this is more likely a flaw with the speakers or their setup rather than the electronics (assuming that the electronics are capable of driving the speakers properly in the first place).

Edit: Tuan, I'm familiar with Martin Colloms' articles on the subject, the problem is that most people who use the term aren't, and certainly don't have a well-developed view of what it means, they just have the acronym.

-- Ian

 

"There is a real danger that the audiophile community---manufacturers, critics, and customers alike---has become obsessed with the search for absolute beauty in reproduced sound and has lost sight of the underlying animal force essential to a truly musical experience. Drama, surprise, and dance elements are essential to most music at almost every level of taste. " (M. Colloms)

no doubt a reflection of the human condition: the contrast of love and lust!

 

The 400xi, is flatter than a witch's tit in a snow storm, all air space and big flabby bass, bugger all get up and go, with a major attack of YAWNicity, great at hifi though, as for prat :ffrc: :ffrc: :ffrc: mind you, the new naim stuff aint much better.still It's a krell that doesn't strip paint off walls, a step forward I feel Wm

 

Integrateds that do the Prat thing without going for the full on NAim presentation are out there.

Audio Research, Sim Audio, Gryphon and Sugden to name but four. As you are in the US, the Gryphon and Sugden will probably be rather expensive for what they acheive.If you can get away high efficiency speakers, the Manley Stingray would also be a good shout.

 

What speakers are you trying to drive Mac?

Cheers
Chris

 

Secondhand Accuphase integrated will do the job assuming your speakers can do timing.
Don't buy new - then again, don't buy anything new (with the possible exception of cartridges)

 

Many thanks to all for their comments re the Krell and sorry to have sparked off a debate about what PRaT is. To be fair, I myself had never heard of it until several months ago while looking at the NAIM forum.

It is a strange and unfortunate term but it seems to imply what I look for in an amplifier - a real feeling of "get up and go" and feeling of fast leading edges to the notes. It is all a bit hard to describe, but once heard never forgotten. Some amps have it and some don't. The general consensus seems to be that the Krell doesn't so I will pass on this one and look elsewhere. I will have a look at some of the models mentioned in the thread.

Again, many thanks for the responses.

 

Whoops hit the send button too soon.
Chris, I am using Dynaudio 1.3SE's.

 

You must try a Belcanto Evo.

For precision, speed, accuracy and power it would be my first choice.


Being analogue-valvey in my tastes I seek something slightly different. It sounds like it would be right up your street however.

The BC sounds especially juicy when powered straight from a CDP with a built in volume control. If you have this, its an even more natural choice.

Cheers
Chris

 

Hi Chris, thanks for the tip. I hadn't heard of BelCanto but I'll look it up on the 'net.
One of the drawbacks of living in and working in Vietnam is that I don't have options to hear anything - other than the usual Japanese products - so I have to buy blind.

I do have good contacts for getting stuff brought in though.

Cheers,
John McM