Dynamic Turtle needs a new phono stage - Budget up to £1500

Chaps & Chapettes,

I'm after a new phono stage and have a budget of £1k, but obviously I'd like to spend a lot less. I want to get something that's going to be flexible and well-designed enough to stay in my system for a long time.

As usual, I'm more than happy to buy a "pre-loved" unit in order to maximise value. I've included a shortlist of candidates below, ranging in value from about £500-£1500. I'd be grateful if you could give me any left-field/esoteric suggestions, or inform me of any obvious ommissions!

I have considered getting my pre-amp upgraded with the onboard stage, but its not particularly flexible and I think I could do better for the money.

My cart is a Dynavector DV20X-H (2.8mV output, 150 ohms resistance, ">1kOhm" loading) and the pre-amp is a BAT VK-3i. The system is already quite warm/lush sounding and I'm looking to preserve that hard-won smoothness!

Anyway, here's the shortlist:

Pathos Inthegroove MkII
BAT VK-P5 (well over budget!)
Lector Phonoamp (slightly over budget!)
Trichord Diablo/Delphini 2
Eastern Electric Phonomax
Whest PS.20/M.20
Ear 834P
Clearaudio Balanced
AQVOX Phono
Dynavector P75
YS Audio Phono
Graham Slee Era Gold V

Cheers,
DT

 

you have EAR 834P on E-bay, rather cheap at the moment, i think it ends in 2 days. the seller is from swiss.

 

Diablo. Or 2nd hand groove. Or go DIY.

 

ooops, also you have 834P on sale in private ads, 300 quid.

 

depends if you like valve, or solid state.

at £300, an MC/MM 834P is hard to beat.

I've got no intention to change mine, I think I will have it for many years to come.

Quite impressed with the new one made by Noteworthy Audio. I'd be trying that one, the Lector one, the Graaf one and old faithfull 834P in the valve section of the market place.

Ive probably missed some good ones out in your price range..

I dont like SS phono stages, so I'm the wrong person to ask about them, and won't venture an opinion..

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/EAR-834P-valve-...yZ122650QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Well, I'm quite keen on the 834P:

1) Has a great reputation
2) Thermionic
3) Easy to re-sell if I don't like it
4) Easy to service/maintain if I do like it!
5) Quite affordable
6) Small

Not the last word in flexibility or output options though.

DT

 

Hi,

You forgot the two versions of the DIY HiFisupply Cole Kit (assembled).

http://diyhifisupply.com/diyhs_cole.htm

I would especially suggest you consider the "LCR Cole" fully assembled using S&B TX-102 MC Stepup Transformers. This one is playing roughly on Wavac LCR X-1 Level of performance.

Price $ US 1,876 assembled and shipped to you, plus the usual 20% Tax/Duties allowances.

Note that I have designed the audio circuit and power supply for this and in effect also the LCR RIAA Module and had a very large hand in designing the S&B TX-103 MC Stepups, HOWEVER I am not making a single penny on any of these items, so don't buy them to put bread my way.

As for the rest, I am very familiar with the EAR 834P, it is no match or patch unless you want something that sounds VERY TOOBY, in wich the LCR Cole is probably not the best choice, it is more neutral, resolved and open sounding.

Ciao T

 

bit of an empty box isnt it T?

http://diyhifisupply.com/kits/ColeTop.JPG

 

Hi,

The supply iron is in a seperate box. So several big chunks are outside the box, the rest is down to the fact that the Phonostage is a standard equipment size box. Also, the picture you show illustrates the standard, RC equalised Cole.

The LCR Cole (this Photo is from an early prototype BTW, I don't understand why Brian does not update the pictures....) is here:



This BTW shows the chinese Amorphous Stepups, not S&B, also the coupling cap's are generic Solen, not the copper encased Obbligato ones used now, plus the PSU Section only uses generic electrolytics, not the Black Gates Brian Cherry now includes (I don't quite see eye-2-eye with him on BG's, but it's his product).

As I designed the circuit, you can rest assured that it is a VERY stripped down design with a minimal number oc components.

As the LCR RIAA Module is direct coupled to the first stage this big value coupling capacitor is eliminated and only a 10nF Silvered Mica coupling Capacitor remains between the first stage & RIAA and the second stage.

As I dislike cathode bypass capacitors (even BG's) the circuit does not use any either. The CCS Loads for the Anodes are in this picture hidden under the PCB and hardwired, the newer builds use a small PCB for the CCS (one per CCS) and so more bist and pieces are visible.

So, in the net there are not very parts to put, but then again, it is not how many parts you use, but what you do with them that matters.... ;-)

BTW, the RC equalised Cole has a circuit that follows similar principles and in fact the second stage is absolutely identical between either, as is the PSU Schematic etc.

The key difference is the first stage Valve chosen (12AX7/ECC83 for RC Cole and 6922/E88CC for LCR Cole), the methode of load (Resistor for RC Cole, CCS for LCR Cole) and the RIAA equalisation network (passive high impedance RC using a Kondo derived network for Cole RC and passive 600 Ohm constant impedance T-Network LCR Module from S&B for the LCR Cole).

Ciao T

 

Dont' forget the Loricraft Missing Link and the Icon Audio one. A very nice man called Jonathan Ribbee did a major nerdathon over on PFM. Eventually the Icon won, down to it's being able to act as a pre-amp as well. I took my Loricraft over one weekend, and it convincingly weeed on the Whest's Strawberries.
The Dynavector p100? That Tony L took up at the same time also sounded damn good, a little darker maybe.
You really should have try and have a listen to one.

 

looks interesting T.

How can I get to hear one, have you got one?

..and is there a LOT between the chinese/S&B soundwise?

 

If you'd consider solid state and want serious flexibility, excellent build quality plus dynamic, fast but never harsh/bright sound, then look at/listen to the Roksan Caspian Reference phono stage.
A grand brand new, can be black or silver and is the best phono stage I've owned or used (I've had Exposure and EAR 834 previously, among others).
Also factor in Roksan's excellent after-sales and on-going upgrade-ability: you could buy the basic Caspian phono and upgrade it to suit, all via the factory, if a grand is too strong right now.
The Caspian Ref is the phono stage you get with the mighty TMS2... enough said?

 

Hi,

I do not have the Cole. My own Phonostage shares several features (and has been improved by the work on the cole as well), but is different. The Cole LCR is a "productable" version of what I listen to at home. My own personal unit is simply too "far out" to be able to that.

I shall be diplomatic about it.

First, I am friend (personally and strictly) with both Brian Cherry of DIY HiFisupply and with Jonathan Billington of Stevens & Billington (and with Harry O'Sullivan of Music First Audio). Many of the "HiFi" products of S&B had their origin in me asking for them and often doing substantial design work, quite a few of DIYHFS's current products also had my work in there somewhere (others distinctly do not, BTW).

The Transformers DIYHFS uses are the same as the ones used by Opera Audio (at last count anyway). I have two pairs of Opera AM MC Steups pulled from gear and replaced by cheap (not TX-103 Level by long stretch) S&B MC stepups. In my cupboard sits an Opera Reference 1.3 Passive Preamp, which uses Opera's copy of the TX-102 Attenuator Transformer from S&B using their AM Cores.

In the system is a Music First Passive Magnetic Preamp (copper) and my Phonostage uses an S&B TX-103 (& S&B EQ-600 LCR RIAA Module). They are used because they suit my personal sonic sensibilities much better than the alternatives at hand. I would have no problems to say if it was the other way around either. And yes, the differences are VERY LARGE.

To be blunt, the AM Cores sound as bad as generic iron cores.

Now to SOME what I call "bad sound" may actually be considered "good", indeed, Audio Consulting in Swizerland is proud of using just cheap generic iron cores in their transformers and claim thay they get "good tone" (they fail however to get a match of the primary inductance between two transformers shipped together better than 50%!!!). I may be counted on the contrarian side.

Can I recommend the chinese AM Transformers? Nope, you can save a lot of money by going for other solutions instead.

Yet then again, YOU (as in "any reader" not you personally) may actullay like what they do, even if I personally am rather less taken with the results.

Ciao T

 

I feel I should say my experience with the AM core Django was extremely favourable. I sold it to BBV and both of us have now decided to upgrade to the S&B transformers on Thorstens recommendation so we should be able to give a good comparison between the two types soon (next few weeks).

The AM Django replaced my Ming Da MC7R tube pre-amp and BBV's Bent Audio Passive - both pretty good preamps themselves.

 

Hi,

Funny. Bent Audio, with the possible exception of a few very rare units (and we are talking stuff here that makes rocking horse droppings and hen's teeth look common) used all and sundary S&B TX-102's.

The S&B TX-102's where designed and intended to be as close as possible to the literal "wire with gain/attenuation" and equally the TX-103 MC Stepups where designed to do that (the Eq-600 too). They do fall ever so slightly short of those ideals, but VERY little.

Often a piece of wire merely reveals problems elsewhere, instead of improving things. Replacing in a system (especially one including dome tweeters and bryston amplifers - sorry, could not resist that one) a device that substantially alters the signal with one that does not does not always result in an improvemnet, nor does introducing a device that substantially alters the signal will always and reliably result in what is percieved as "worse sound".

Which is why an in-system home trial is so relevant.

Ciao T

 

Sorry I think I meant White Noise Audio.

 

I will add the Cole to the shortlist, but I didn't know there was an S&B option (at least, there is no indication on website).

Thorsten, with regards to the S&B'd Cole, has the output impedence and/or voltage been specifically designed with passive preamps in mind (like their Django)? My (active) preamp has an input impedence of "100Kohm minimum each phase". Any potential issues here??

DT

 

Tenson - I had a WNA preamp not bent audio, which is another TVC. Hence T's confusion!

Thorsten - what is required to swap the transformers in the django? The AM cores sound a bit coloured. What do you think of Silver Rock? My system (including domes and bryston) does in fact sound better in every respect swapping from the WNA unit to the TVC - indicating the basic underlying competence of said approaches I would like to compare your cole with the borbely (with and without stepup) when you have the time if you are agreeable!

 

Hi,

It is indicated on the website just fine, to quote:

Option 4: S&B TX103 permalloy stepup transformer. 5/10/20x primary $480

Not explicitly, but it has been made low enough to make sure it can drive a TVC and the gain is such that it will work with passive controllers as long as the cartridge has a reasonable output voltage (0.2mV @ 5cm/S or higher) and the amplifier needs no more than 1V RMS for full power.

No problems.

In fact, what you could do is to ask to have a second set of "High Impedance only" outputs with a smaller value very high quality coupling capacitor (like 0.47uF) fitted (Tell Brian to e-mail me about it) which would give you a second output optimised to take advantage of the fact that it does not need to drive a difficult load....

Ciao T