Experiences at chez Tones

I've been reading about thoughts ref big Tones systems since we were still using the HFC forum. Several times I've looked at going over, but had to back out due to moving house et al.

Well I finally made some time, jumped on a train and popped over to see what all the fuss was about.

First off, my thanks to Tony for an extremely entertaining afternoon of both chat about hi-fi and actual listening to his system.

For context, in stereo mode I use:
Teac VRDS-7 connected using very good custom built cables (thanks zanash) to my Nait 5/Hicap integrated combination. This then powers my Linn Kabers (with latest spec neodymium tweeters) and in parallel an REL Q100. I must add that I'm still tweaking the sound of my system after moving 4 weeks ago. The new room has far fewer issues with standing waves than the old room, resulting in virtually none of the dreaded 40hz bass "hump" that plagued my system in the old place.

Right, the interesting stuff, here's my thoughts on Tones system, which I think consists now of:
Wadia transport/Perpetual technologies upsampling filter/wadia dac/belcanto amp/meadowlark speakers. Most of these appear to have been tweaked in some way or others, and there is a HUGE level of attention being paid to power supplies and interconnects.

- The thing that stood out above all else was it's ability to portray drums. We tried a variety of music (Sam Brown, Jazz, Electronica and Vai), on anything with a drum section in it, it was simply the closest I've felt to having the drummer in front of me, completely awesome stuff, and easily the best I've heard at this element of musical presentation from any system I've ever heard.

- Bass control and detail. I thought that my Kaber/REL sub did a pretty good job of bass. As the studio audio said "eh errrrr". Tones system was incredible at this too. The sheer speed and quality (not necessarily quantity, there was plenty, but not TOO much) was wonderful, love it

- Cohesiveness. All the musical elements really did hang together in a way that was very boppy and even handed. Whilst I've highlighted elements that were simply amazing, I don't remember thinking that any area was severly lacking, and I'm guessing that it would be a good solution for a wide variety of musical types

- Natural. The bass doesn't have the extra "buzz" that a typical Naim system will impart and in some ways, that is not always a good thing if that's what you like. Having said that, the overall effect came through in a very natural manner and it made listening at loud volumes for a reasonable period of time very easy.

- Doesn't go amazingly deep. Having a sub in my stereo system, I did notice that it didn't give you that gut renching feeling that sub musical tracks can do. I'm guessing that the system easily hits 30-40hz, but clearly below that, it doesn't make it much further.
The interesting thing is that I came away prefering the musical presentation without the extra deep bass. I think that I sometimes find it a little off putting in my own system. Time for a rethink on this issue I think.

- Not quite as natural as a good LP based system. I would happily state that Tones system is as good as ANY CD based system I've heard, including some seriously expensive Naim/Linn systems that I've come across. On electronica, it also stomps all overl anything I've come across. I think that this is partly because newer electronic music makes better use of CDs "pros", and that LP as a format would really struggle to match it.
Having said that, I do also believe that LP has a certain "musicality" that I simply don't think that CD will ever match. It's this element that I believe a really sh1t hot LP fronted system would have an advantage on. For example, at Bristol I heard a 10k VPI setup and still rate that as the best system I've ever heard. Having said all of that, I do think that musical taste is also relevant. Records themselves have clear technical limitations, and I think that the VPI and yes I will include the much older (and cheaper) LP12 do a brilliant job of making good use of the format.


So in summary, Tone's system is the best CD based system I've ever heard. It does most things very well, some amazingly, and only loses out in areas that the CD format itself is in my opinion rather lacking.

Thanks again to Tone for a very interesting afternoon. Now, let me go play with my subs setup some more.

 

ER....... humm Don't think It's quite that good, but thanks a lot Mike, for making the trip and coming to see Chez Tones.
I feel Mikes comments about TT's are pretty well spot on, they do have something that cdp's don't have.
Personal music preferences and presentation plays a large part in how YOUR sound will end up I feel.
I'm pretty near completing this system in it's present form.
On the point about naturalness, (no exscues here entirely my fault underestimating the current draw on the wadia's switching relays in the dac, the trick PSU device that was adorning the 'Digital power supply rail' I fried, and twas absent from yesterdays listening session) this does have a significant effect on the natrualness of the sound, still not quiet as natural as a well tempered Deck, but fokking close).
I have a couple of 'Little tweeks' left to preform then finito'
We did do just one cable swop, on the power amp yesterday, It made a little difference I feel.
Once again thanks to Mike for making the trip, good to met him and chat about all those things that you just can't do on a forum. Tone

 

Tone, the last time I heard your system on 8/7/03 I think I suffered from a little false memory of my previous visit as well as from (too)high expectations.

It did everything right from a musical perspective though, and a lot more besides.

You told me about frying the trick PSU and this made me listen out for faults. I didn't really find any, but I did wonder as to how it would sound once you got this fixed.

 

I was having a think on the way to work about some of the implications ref "life" and how well Tone's system does it.

Don't get me wrong, it does it well when compared to most systems, it's just that Tone's system does everything else amazingly well, leaving the area of "life" as a bit of an achiles heal.

I believe that most of it is down to the software format, i.e. that I think that CD simply doesn't have as much "life" as LP.
I also did some reading around on the net about the Belcanto. Interestingly, one of the reviews also commented on this, suggesting that some excessively expensive valve amp had more life.

Now the above ideas are OK, apart from:
- Sticking an LP on the front end might help with the life, but wouldn't then have some of the drive and growl at the bottom end of the scale, definitely a trade off. On top of that, it would require a substantial investment in both a turntable and then some software
- Adding a valve amp might help too, but then all the valve amps I've heard haven't had anything like the low end control of the Belcanto, so it's another trade off.

Overall, looks like Tone's system is pushing the boundaries of the capabilities of the format and his system is optimised to do that. Taking a different route may well resolve what I believe to be a slight "*****" in the armour, but it's just going to create a hole somewhere else.

Bugger, let me just have a beer and go listen to some music...

 

Intresting points I feel, the valve amp has been explored very thoughly, I would have to spend a lot of money on a decent valve amp and accuire some efficent speakers to match them, again a serious investment and a trade off, the Belcanto does lower control/speed and dynamics like nothing I've heard this side of an expensive amp either S/S or Valve, and at the moment I don't want to lose what I have.
Another way would be to introduce a valve pre, to add a little mid range Euphonic's, have tried 3 pre' lately Lilolee's Art valve pre' for the money very good, a Joss stick induced session happened when that was plugged in, a slower presentation, but a warmth and glow decended on Chez R 'n' R, Lee prefered this, not quite for me but a valid one none the less
A BAT VK3? was tried, transparent and mildly warm with subtle effects, really not much difference and for the money er. no not in my system.
The last a Spectral Dc30??? not valves, but man this is good the best trade off so far, all the music and more, with that increase in presence (Mid point) but the speed is almost the same great, however £12k plus another set of I/C's and Power leads Nah, not enough to warrent for me.
The Trick psu does add very realiness if you like (Henry T/Lilolee and cookie monster have heard it working, however I was still running isolda at that point and eupens, so more in-balance)
It won't beat a decent TT for overall realiness, but I can get very close, plus all those bits they don't do that well
Basicaly it's a question of priorities, what music you like and how you like, every thing else is a compromise. WM

 

Tone,

I'd agree, certainly seems to be that you've reached a point where making a change to achieve a slightly different aim is going to give a negative aspect on some of the positive points you have now. Ahh the joys of hi-fi and optimising the compromises.

Maybe you need one of those MF X10s.... Sorry, only joking.

 

Sounds like I need to borrow like 10 different power cables, mains regeneration devices, isolation transformers etc etc etc!! before I can firmly say it does or does not do it for me..

Do you know which power cords your brother found most effective on his valve amps?

What about you pete? have you found much to make a difference on your quads?

Life is not easy!

For my own sytem though, there is SO much more I need to attend to first - the target glass/alu stand has got to be next in the firing line, and my TT is still on a little wooden box (not the best isolation device in the universe!)... then theres interconnects - about time I tried DIY mk II perhaps with isolda speaker cable.... although Im going to have to try to shield them somehow.... perhaps aluminium foil sellotaped around the cable sheathing?? still thinking about that one.. any ideas welcome..

Trouble is with this hobby, there is always so damn much to do, and thats without even box-swapping.

Sigh.

Maybe I should sell it all and by a JVC midi system and a truck load of CD/LPs

 

:yikes:

At least make it a Teac, or a Denon, or maybe those NAD L55/L75 things, or a s/h Linn Classik.......

Cheers

 

Power cables on Quads?!.....you do know that cable can't poss.......[Quad mode]

[Cable mode]

They seem to make a difference almost regardless of level of system, I'm think lower level systems as much as higher.

On the Quads in particular, yes improved filtering which is I think all cables do over and above the obvious, does help.

We really didn't get a chance to run any power cable test at the bake off. What we did manage before people arrived, was very limited. I'm not certain if you have good or bad mains! as we did not hear a lot of difference. I'd probably go for good mains as you have little in the way of industry near you just lots of domestic influences. Do your system sond different at different times of the day ?

 

Thats very very tricky to say.

I find my memory of sound to be very short, and comparisons over time like that are hard to make,

Also, Im not entirely unconvinced that any apparent improvement at night may be more to my closing my large curtains and improving the listening room, and the fact that it is dark being a more receptive atmosphere for music..... instead of mains related improvements...



Chris

 

yep a sticky version of tinfoil,avaliable in plain(used for repairs on aircondioning) and black (black tac) used to control light spill on theatrical lanterns,how much are you after?

 

ooo, about enough to do 3 x 1m interconnects.

Do you know where I might get some?

Chris

 

might do as long as you dont mind plain old silver

 

has the postman called yet chis?

 

THanks hippy!

Youre a gentleman and a scholar!



Chris

 

A week is a long time in parliment, so to at Chez rock 'n' roll, today we raised redline another 1000 rpm, big thanks to Henry and Robbo for a fun afternoon of Ale and Timpy Abuse WM

 

Cheers for another fun packed afternoon guys.

Tone, I think you need to write down your definitions of what consitutes a "music" or a "hi-fi" sound, just so that we are all clear. As I'm sure a lot of people are only partially clued up on exactly what you mean by these terms.

Now, I always thought I knew what you meant by a "hi-fi" sound, but if your sytem as we heard it at the weekend is anything to go by then I need to re-define in my mind what I thought you meant before. Although I think I already know now!

I always rememebr saying in the past that you hate a sound that is "scrubbed clean", but isn't that what you have now? The top-end (and overall sound) you have now is one of the cleanest, grit and grain free I have heard for someone who apparently says they loathe this type of presentation. I don't mind if I get labelled a "hi-fi" guy, but I find it very distracting having hashy, grainy or sibilant treble, just as others find bass that doesn't time properly to be top of their list of priorities instead - you invariably have to choose one over the other IME unless you're very lucky. I'm in admiration as even my system sound very dirty and coloured by comparison now! :MILD:

 

Ohhh errr........thanks Henry, um............well, yes I do have a distaste for ultra clean, serialy open upper frequenices and do loathe them with a passion this due to everyone I've heard (bar one) being totaly inert musicaly and uninvolving and having no engauging feelings, this is where I use the term HIFI, ultra clean/smooth/open niceiness, that does not engage or Time or have the groovy feeling. Usually a trade off happens.
Seems this time I've got pretty close to a good trade off, yep the top end is clean and shite free, pretty open and spacious too, but we have seriously tight deep fast and full bass, that times and music that flows, with a natural texture, possible this is very near true oval earth? terms, only meaningful to small percentage?
It does now play music as I feel things should be, nearly there, just 3 more small 'bits and pieces to preform' then, I'll leave it
Til I start my next project. Tone

 

Henry,

I honestly don't think Tony could give a definition if he wanted to, it basically seems to be a case of "Yep that connects" = Musical vs. "Ooh listen to the decay on the cymbal" = HiFi

The last time I heard WM's system it was still rough in the treble, a raw quality which I, like you, assumed WM liked. Now I believe that really musical systems sound quite dark and rolled of in the extreme treble, so to me that system wasn't "musical" because my attention was diverted by the tweeter.

But it does seem that WM spends much time persuing the goal of giving a "musical" system higher fidelity, whilst possibly others, look to make real hifi systems more musical. The thing is, unless we have no appreciation of music or hifi at all, we should in theory end up in the same area.

So when WM says musical, he means he likes it, when it's hifi, he does not. I feel that we really should not read any more than that into the various pearls that the great man utters

 

Mike, proberbly not to far far from the truth, there are a few x/over points (scue the Pun ) but it's close, Great er.no........... not in the least, just different a little odd and way out on occations, but certainly not that, just different and not afraid to say it maybe. Tone