F1: Alonso proud to have beaten Schumacher

From Atlas F1:

Yeah right . It would be like beating Lance Armstrong riding a pennyfarthing. If Schumacher had been in the other Renault this year he would have beaten Alonso into a cocked hat but then if Alonso wants to delude himself who am I to stop him

Michael.

 

The fact that Schumacher was clearly riding a penny-farthing makes it all the more surprising that Sir Frank Williams has decided to race with penny-farthings next year. Or do he and Jean Todt know something that we don't?

 

Could be a clever decision. Bridgestone will (IMO) have something good for next year. Jean Todt seems to think Ferrari may even get something special for the last couple of races this year. Also, if F1 becomes a single tyre formula (something Mosely is pushing for) then Michelin have said they'd quit so it might be better to have a year's worth of Bridgestone experience behind them by the time everyone has to switch (if that turns out to be the case) - especially as 2006 is bound to be a "development" year for Williams with Cosworth engines.

 

Man i do get a bit sick of hearing about how when Schumacher (dirty cheating tw*t that he is. And before anyone questions me on this. Driving into people to win is NOT good sportsmanship) wins its all down to him (err, i should hope he should have won quite a lot, since hes been at Ferrari the car has been designed around him - not the usual way of doing things - and quite a lot of money thrown at it) and not the car and how when he loses its the cars fault.

The quickest car driver combo this year is Raikkonen and McLaren, but reliabilty hasnt been the McLaren's strong suit. The most consisent is Alonso. He also a nice guy (ie not an ar*ehole) and extremely quick.

 

Oh dear. A blinkered Schumacher hater

I've got nothing against Alonso. On the contrary, after Schumacher he's my next favourite driver and IMO the most naturally talented driver in the paddock after Schumacher. He hasn't really beaten Schumacher as a driver this year though so his claim is somewhat hollow. Hakkinen was the last person to really beat Schumacher in cars of similar competetiveness (in 1998).

Sure, Schumacher has had very good cars in recent years but he's also the only person in recent times to have won the championship in inferior equipment (94, 95 and 2000). McLaren may have the fastest car this year but if it breaks down all the time it's still inferior to the Renault. The Renault is, without a doubt, the best package this year.

Michael.

 

Far from it, i do believe him to be a highly talented driver. But just not as talented as many seem to believe and for me more importantly not a person who likes to win fair and square.

As for the equipment - i wouldnt agree that the car he had in those years you listed was inferior. If for no other reason than i dont believe its been possible to win (the championship) in F1 with an inferior car for probably at least 20 years.

In 94 in Adelaide he drove deliberately into Damon Hill to win the Championship (ie he shouldnt have won it and only did so unfairly). In 95 the benetton package was actually bloody good (as it was it 94, but this time with the best engine of the time - the Renault) having the best engine in the field and quite clearly a decent aero package. I dont personally feel this qualifies as inferior equipment.

Dont remember the 2000 Ferrari being bad. The 1999 one wasnt great.

If you dont have competive (truly competitive) equipment you cant compete. Simple as that. And no one is good enough to drag a dog up enough to win. The driver input simply isnt enough. But that really is just my opinion, and i respect that it may be different from yours Enjoy Interlagos

 

We can argue until the cows come home about Adelaide '94 and we will never agree. IMO the crash was as much Hill's fault as Schumacher's. That's the last I'll say on the matter.

Well, if MS hadn't broken his leg in 1999 he would almost certainly have won the championship. Irvine lost it by only 2 points. It's hard to believe that MS wouldn't have scored 3 points more than Irvine over the races where he was out to injury.

Of course the car matters more than the driver but that's just the point I was trying to make. It's a bit hollow Alonso claiming he "beat" Schumacher when he knows full well that MS didn't stand a chance this year. MS however is one of the very few drivers who can "drag a dog up enough to win". Barcelona '96 is one example. In fact, he won 3 races in '96 in a Ferrari that had no right to be called a racing car. I'm quite sure that no other driver then or now would have managed the same.

Michael.

 

How did I guess that was the incident he was refering to. One incident makes him an unsporting driver of course. Like no other driver has ever been involved in similar incidents during their career??

As for it being 50/50 well Damon is to the best of my knowlege the only Williams driver Frank Williams has ever openly critised. That speaks volumes about his opinion of Damon and to me speaks volumes about who was really to blame in that incident. It was also the opinion of the marshals and everyone else who actually know what they're talking about that Damon was at least as much to blame.

As for Alonso, I think he's a great driver (but then so are all F1 drivers) and this year he clearly deserves to win.

GTM

 

Lets not forget Suzuka in '98 when he drove into Villeneuve

He is of course,the best and certainly most titled driver of his generation,but no less ruthless or manipulative than Prost,Senna,or any other driver who's prepared to win by taking a competitor off the track.

As for FW openly criticising drivers.....he has openly criticised many of the drivers in his team over the years,either with direct or indirect comments,and often used that as a means of motivating them,but it's also true of many other team owners.

 

alexs2 - I think you mean Jerez '97 But as you say, no less ruthless than Prost or Senna. Senna openly admitted to ramming Prost off the track to win the title at Suzuka '90 and yet he's a great sporting hero and MS isn't?

Alonso clearly deserves to win this year and I'm very happy it's him and not Raikonnen (well, unless something awful happens in the last 3 races). Nothing against Raikonnen but just like Alonso a lot more.

I hope that Ferrari are competetive next year to enable MS to have one last title before retiring at the top

Michael.

 

I see a blinked ex Ferrari owner championing a good driver with an a aloof attitute and bad sportmanship nothing more

 

I supported Ferrari long before I owned one and have done long since

 

Nope, Senna's no sporting hero of mine, he was another over rated unsporting idiot a lot of the time. (Niki Lauda, now theres a proper Hero. Or Gilles Villeneuve maybe) I know he did the same (more or less) thing as Michael did a few years later, and thats one of the reasons i was never a senna fan.

(and your right we wont see eye to eye on that
Id cut my right arm off before i ever believe Mr Schumacher didnt do that deliberately! )

We do agree though that Alonso deserves to win. I also think Raikonnen deserves to win in the future. The car is good sure, but he's been lightning quick all season and on several occasions has driven out of his skin. A couple of very good qualifiers stick in my mind.


Frank Williams is a muppet.

Oh yeh and Schumacher should have retired on a high last year.

 

The brain of Britain says

"Frank Williams is a muppet."

Frank started a company from nothing that now employs 500 people. He now lives in a mansion and when I last worked with him last year ran 3 BMW's.

He has done most of this whilst confined to a wheel chair.

Then some cretin who probably lives in a semi, runs a second hand car with a crap job calls him a muppet.

Who is the muppet ?

 

I could call you lots of things, but i wont. My opinion on Frank Williams doesnt give you the right to (attempt to) insult me. Anyway, I love the muppets. Gonzo was cool. Jeez.

At least i dont live in Swindon! (i get it, its a joke)

 

"Man i do get a bit sick of hearing about how when Schumacher (dirty cheating tw*t that he is. And before anyone questions me on this. Driving into people to win is NOT good sportsmanship) wins its all down to him (err, i should hope he should have won quite a lot, since hes been at Ferrari the car has been designed around him - not the usual way of doing things - and quite a lot of money thrown at it) and not the car and how when he loses its the cars fault. " HiFi Crazy

Schumacher has had the best car for a long time for a variety of reasons. He went to Ferrari when they were close to nowhere and dragged their performance up as part of the dream team (Brawn, Byrne, Todt etc). It is very rare to come across a driver that is able to motivate a whole team. I know this from knowing people who worked there. And yet on the outside of the team a lot of people don't like him.

Ayrton Senna was able to do the same to a team. I worked with him for 3 years at McLaren and you always knew that even if we didn't give him the best car he could still win a championship and motivate the whole team. And sometimes win races that he should have no chance in. At Donington in 93 he had at one point twice lapped the driver who was to win the World Championship (and Prost had the fastest car).

Those two drivers are very similar in their ability and single mindedness to win.

Ian

 

Schumacher does what he has to do to win,that doesn't make him a cheat,it makes him a winner.

 

Michael - I have no doubt you'll agree with every word of this this

Being serious - Alonso is the youngest champ to date - do you feel he is as good as MS was at the same age?

 

greg - funnily enough, I wouldn't be surprised if Pat Symonds turns out to be right. There's no doubt in my mind that he's got something special but IMO it's too early to tell if he's the next "great". I personally don't feel that he's as outstanding at this stage of his career as Schumacher was at the same stage (early 90s).

Nearly half the current grid have at some stage in their careers been touted as "the next Schumacher" with people saying similar things about them as Symonds is saying about Alonso. Alonso is IMO by far the most credible of them but it remains to be seen if he's one of the greats

My beef with him (and the point of my original post) was that he believes he's "beaten" Schumacher to the title. If Schumacher had been in a Renault or McLaren (or even a Michelin shod Ferrari) this year then he'd have a point but Schumacher was in a hopelessly uncompetetive Ferrari so IMO it's a rather silly boast.

I'd love to see Alonso, Schumacher and Raikkonen all have similarly competetive cars next year for a real 3 way championship battle

Michael.

 

Mebbe they should all be in A1 then