Fully ballanced valve preamps

Seeking for some help finding more options for a fully balanced tube preamp - for a reasonable amount of money. I've already tried some other forums and most of the models I got recommended are US models. They're either selling for lots of money in Europe or are difficult to deliver from the States so I would rather prefer to consider something European.

The usual recommendations were: BAT VK-3i, Sonic Frontiers Line 1, Art Audio VSL or similar.

So far the only Euro option is EAR 864 - not easy to find on s/h market and quite pricey - it can fetch up to 2000E. Nagra's are of course too expensive.

I am wondering if really this part of the market is US-dominated or there are European or Asian brands worth considering. How's about Italian Unison Research (known for excellent sound/value ratio, German Valvet, etc....

The only important thing for me - apart from sound quality - is that it is tubed and balanced. It can be line-only, although I won't complain about phono or remote.

It should drive ATC 20 active (pro version), with 1V input sensitivity and >10kohm input impedance.

Thanx for any input.

 

Deja vu!!

I recently bought a BAT VK3i to replace my Ming-Da pre. Basically, I hadn't realised just how lazy I am and couldn't handle the lack of remote control any longer!

Anyway, there are plenty of pre-loved BAT VK3i's available here in the UK. Expect to pay £1000 for a bog standard unit, £1250 with the remote and £1500 with the remote & phono stage. Extremely good value if you ask me, as this one one of the best pre-amps of recent times.

There are plenty of EAR 864's knocking around too. Never used one myself, but only ever heard good things about it.

I went for the BAT in the end because, superb sonic properties aside, it ticked some important boxes:

a) Remote control! (a gorgeous machined jobby with lots of extra functions like fade and level memory).
b) Valve/triode amplification stage - never heard a transistor pre that hasn't sounded anything other than flat & one-dimensional next to a similarly-priced valve pre. Not keen on the idea of passive pre's either, as I much prefer a warm/euphonic/rich presentation over transparency & detail.
c) Serious attention paid to quality of the volume control itself - "electronic shunt Vishay bulk metal foil 100-step attenuator", rather than the standard ALPS carbon pot afair (which has no place in a £2k+ preamp IMHO). Their VK3i white paper makes very interesting reading in this regard.
d) fully balanced operation is a bonus
e) It looks cool and is has the option to upgrade the output stage!

No experience with the sonic frontiers or art audio pre's you mention, but can heartily recommend the BAT.

Rgds,
DT

 

Have you ever had a chance to listen BAT against EAR 864? I keep on hearing complaints that EAR can sound 2-dimensional in comparison with US counterparts such as BAT or Audio Illusions - although quite difficult to accept that ......

 

Hi,

Try a non-tubed one. The Music First Passive Magnetic Preamp originally carried the working title "Attenuator - Pro" and was meant to be strictly a pro pirece of kit with a more interesting look reserved for the hi-end verion (at a higher price of course).

See if you can get a demo, you may be surprised.

Ciao T

 

Try a Pathos Incontrol..a hybrid valve output pre with seperate power supply, zero feedback, balanced, true Class A operation.
Change the 2 cheap valves for a set of cryo NOS Mullards CV4003 and fit valve rings and you will have one of the best pre. Midband to die for and massive dynamic. I have compared my pre with a ML 32 and its VERY CLOSE for the money.
Cheers

 

maybe i'm wrong but were you the one who put plinius M8 pre on sale?
actually i'm very curious how something like plinius CD-LAD would cope with my ATCs. lost of users rave about plinius being between SS and tube world although you can also read complaints that it can sound dry.
to be honest if there is a SS pre that would be able to sound very musical, warm and full of life i would definitely rather go SS than tube, just for a sake of convenience. i live 10 years with tubes and i really gained respect for a comodity of SS amps.

 

Not in my experience. There are plenty of "low-maintenace" tube stages out there. Some manufacturers (thinking BAT, CJ, VTL, ARC, T+A) have quite sophisticated "tube management" abilities in order to promote longer life and a produce a more balanced sound. You'll have to research exactly how & what they do, but I remember the Hi-Fi+ review of the top VTL stage being quite interesting from a technology POV.

If there's one thing the Heathrow show reminded me of, it's that your choice of amplification has much greater bearing on the final sound quality, over whether your source is digital or analogue. Generally, I found CDP's & TT's running through SS amps to be colder, flatter and less involving than CDP's & TT's running through valve amps. This is a big generalisation though!

Admittedly, my ears are attuned to a tube sound and therefore probably biased in this regard. BTW, Does anyone else share the above sentiments or am I on my own here?

I haven't tried the Pathos Incontrol, but own a Classic One MkII, and have auditioned the TT-RR. I love the sound these amps make - extremely musical & "cohesive", for want of a better word. Not suited to rock (there a bit laid-back) though. Beautifully designed & manufactured too.

Rgds,
DT

 

I owned a BAT vk3i briefly. Turned out to be extremely noisey, no matter which source, cables or speakers used. A benchmark dac (used as a pre) utterly destroys it in every way.

 

Lol Kub - the BAT VK-3i Is the quietest pre I've ever (not) heard!! I was shocked at first, as I was expecting lots of the usual tube hiss. Amazed after having turned the volume up to 99 and hearing hardly any hiss whatsoever. MUCH less noise than my TAG PA20r or Pathos.

You definitely had a noisy/faulty tube. Perhaps you should have switched the tubes around or had it serviced. Lost a very good pre there

I've only ever heard good things about the benchmark though, and it certainly has a following, but I'll be amazed if it genuine outperforms the BAT as a pre.

DT

 

It wasn't faulty, it was brand spanking new and tested by the dealer.

It was sheer bliss going back to the silent benchmark, despite the fact the benchmark was only a temporary solution for pre duties.

(Obviously as with everything it's all relative. Depends how good your hearing is or how fussy you are more likely, plus how quiet your house is and how revealing your other gear is etc, etc)

 

@ D.Turtle

Just realized that you owned MingDa 67HA
Can you tell us a bit more about it and why you got rid of it?
What does the phrase "head amp" mean in that case?
Last but not least if my count is correct it has 11 tubes, what the hell are they all doing?
Cheers A.

 

I bought the VK-3i because after three months, the novelty of having to get up & walk across the room to adjust the volume on the MC67 wore off.

Very interesting stage compared to the ming-da, which was quite old fashioned in terms of design. It has a very flexible microprocessor controlled stepped attentuator that has some groovy features.

Overall, I went for it because looking at their white paper, they seemed to take the attenuating unit itself very seriously indeed. They didn;t just throw in the regulation ALPS blue pot (which graces far too many high end products and whilst fine at what it does, doesn;t really represent an "audiophile" soloution IMHO).

Also, it has XLR inputs & output which might be useful and can have the output stage upgraded.

As for sound quality, the matching ming-da pre sounded better with the monoblocks of course - very euphonic & warm. A truly lush & beguiling sound.

The BAT is very transparent and presents a more solid image than the Ming-Da, so it has acted to take out some of the warmth from the system but added a little detail and space in its place. Being a hybrid JFET/tube stage, the BAT does texture & tonality too, which is a coupled with the very low noise floor & detail makes this a very good "hi-fi" pre amp (we'll have to agree to disagree KUB - I think anyone listening to my VK3i would agree that its whisper quiet, so the issues you had may be down to some idiosyncrasy like mains or RFI interference, as you say).

Yes, its definitely more on the "hifi" side of the fence than the "musicality" side of the fence, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I definitely prefer the later.

I'll miss the euphony of the Ming-Da, but the BAT is just sooooo flexible, quiet & transparent that I expect to have it in my system for a very long time (famous last words!)

Anub, there's a review of the MC67 in the reviews forum here on zerogain. "head amp" means that it includes a phono stage for turntables. Four of the 11 tubes are for voltage rectification and two are for phono gain. The five 6922's are the main gain stage.

 

thanks for the explanation. not sure if BAT would be solution for a lack of excitement with my ATCs.
meanwhile i discovered more 11-valve preamps such as atma-sphere mp3 with 7 valves (!!!) in its phono stage. a nightmare to roll or upgrade.

 

the more i read about this the more i'm interested in.

TMFPMP could be out of my range for now - at least until the prices drops significantly on s/h market - but something like django or DIY based on S&B trafos i'd love to hear definitely.

 

@3DSonics

btw i think i noticed somewhere your remarks on klimo preamps.... have you listened to merlin LS? there is currently one on sale, the plain line one (no phono, no PSU). i know it is not balanced but actually it doesn't matter as long as it sounds fine and it can run 5m long i/c's without losses.

 

Hi,

A little. It's an okay preamp, nothing too special. Circuit is similar to the CJ PV-10 but with ECC88 and thus the sound is brighter and more forward. I find most active preamps way to coloured and manipulative to give them much attention.

It is unbalanced. The output stage is a cathode follower, which means it will drive a lot of stuff, but stay away from very high capacitance cables.

Ciao T

 

Hi,

Me neither. In fact, I can think of only one possible true solution (which you will not like at all I suspect).

Ciao T

 

selling ATCs?

not yet. i've just got them. let me suffer first, than i'll sell them.

i got them dirt cheap anyway - so cheap it's worth of lots of pain....

 

Hi,

In which case you should at least avoid throwing a lot of extra "good money" after that already spend....

Ciao T

 

btw what did you mean when you were at some other place asked about several preamps and the only thing you said about EAR 864 was - "british".