G5 question for Garyi (and others)

hi Gary

I have just found out that there is a PVR card for the G5 (watch and record TV on a MAC) and am now thinking about a G5 rather than a powerbook/DVDR - both via DVI to a plasma or projector. The reason why I was considering the powerbook is because it makes absolutely no noise on audio playback. My question to you is 'how noisy is the G5?' Can you hear the fans if 5, 10 and 20 feet away? If yes, have you done anything to minimise any noise other than ignoring it!

After much listening to i-Tunes using AIFF and AAC via Soundscape (very, very good) converters my conclusions is that for short listening periods it is very good but for extended listening it is a bit fatiguing (but not when recording - probably because it is a different interaction) and does not have that warmth that hifi converters have. The good thing about pro-audio gear is that it is neutral (can be lean sounding) - great for recording - but I want colouration on playback! I think that I might have to buy an M-Audio and use the spdif out to the Wadia, unless I get WM to customise an M-Audio something or other!

Have you reached any conclusions on your G5/Arcam yet, or have you tried out any other combos?

Thanks

Dominic

 

If you still want a Powerbook but still want PVR capabilities it might be worth looking at the El Gato EyeTV 400 which plugs into a mac via firewire. Theres a review in the latest MacUser (4 out of 5), seems good if a little pricey (nearly 300quid) .

 

Hi Dom.

Firstly you probably know I am a mac man so my opinion is unreservedly biased! TBH I don't know if you have worked with macs before. I have owned macs since the end of the 80s when I had a wickle 512ke, with twin super drives (Super drive back then was the larger capacity floppy drive)

I have been using MAC OSX since March 2001, and what strikes you is you can count the amount of crashes on one hand, in my case I can remember 1 system wide crash or kernel panic in all that time, this will give you confidence in the work that you do. Plus I don't just surf I have created complex illustrator documents and very complicated 70 page plus word documents with many many graphs and graphics, not so much as a glitch from the mac. NO doubt many PC people will jump in here and say they have not had trouble but I think we can all stand up and be honest here, OSX is based on Unix and is in my experience 80-90% more stable than anything I use on PC and I use PCs a lot.

I notice there is yet another 'worm' for PC and Microsoft have rushed out with yet another Patch to try and block the leak.

You don't get this with mac.

Anyways enough of that stuff onto the question in hand.

The G5 has had one problem, the power supply started getting really noisy. By that I don't mean noise in the audio stream, just straight forward noise. This was replaced for me and since then it has been fine. The fans are very quiet, much quieter than my G4 which was not very noisy anyhow. Again not being funny but the G5 is quieter than most PCs I have heard especially considering what it is doing, 64 bit architecture must not be an easy load, and there are 9 fans in there! In terms of noise well I am sat right on it with a low volume TV episode of the terribly unfunny 'friends' unfortunately friends is beating the mac. You can't hear the mac on a silent day in the next room, but you know it has fans so you can hear it on a silent day in the room.

Onto the audio, well I have had a lot of time to digest the sound from the mac. As a recap its via itunes in general at 24000khzs AIff and a few files in the new apple lossless compression format. This exits via the optical out on the G5 into ten metres of cable, into the back of the arcam black box three then a short run to the 52/250/SBLs.

Sound wise, well its certainly compressed, there is no getting from this fact the compression screams at you. Primarily what is missing is detail and mid range. I liken it to this. The mac (or compression) seems to offer the bass depth and treble extremes you get from a decant CDPlayer, but its missing the bit between the deep bass and mid range and the bit between the treble and the midrange. What you get as a result is initially a very impressive sound, but it becomes fatiguing, and sometimes down right annoying. I don't believe this is an inherent problem with the mac. My reasoning is that in the optical out mode on the mac, the internal preamp is by passed, volume control does not effect the output, i.e. the mac has effectively become another source component.

I believe some of the problem will ultimately come down tot he arcam, I don't rate arcam I think in fact it is second rate pap which could reasonably get away with being sold in Currys or Dixons, and it certainly is not a patch on the Dac64 I heard when Merlin came over. These facts for me must be accepted, so too will the fact that the CD has been halved in size and placed onto a harddrive which has to then be sourced and played out of a computer which is doing other things.

One thing I can tell you is that it dosn't matter what you do you can't get itunes to skip, this is important, I do a lot of stuff on the mac and I don't want every mouse click to result in some sort of f**up on the audio out. the mac has true multi tasking and it simply does not skip. I use the CDPlayer on the PC at work and you can't even open Word without the thing skipping and blacking out.

Currently my conlusion to all of this is:

The Mac G5 pisses on anything I have seen in the PC market and Mac market, this is not just a biased opinion, it just screams quality at you., This thing is made from solid aluminium, it starts up in 14 seconds (yes I timed it) and one day for a larf I clicked all the application buttons in my dock at once (42 apps) they all loaded within 40 seconds, no crashes no problems.

The sound out is very good for what it is. I might just be spoiled with what I have become used to, but aside from the negative comments above, the sound is genuinely impressive, there is a lot of forward projection into the room, far more with Naim CDPs and stero separation is excellent, bear in mind the optical out is ready for 5.1 as well

What ever you go with, check out the application itunes catalog, it will do this to your music library:



And you can also access your music via you browser in page order like so:



What ever you do buy loads of memory and have fun!

 

Quick and slightly off topic question

I assume your G5 has a DVI connection. Have you used it as a DVD player? Will it output 5.1/6.1?

I'm thinking of using a Powerbook for this and was just wondering.

J

 

Thanks to both of you, very interesting especially the news of the firewire pvr - still cheaper than a Panasonic DVDR and one less box (ok a much smaller box)!

Gary I'm with you all of the way with the Macs (my girlfriend is a designer - they all use Macs) and in the studio world they all (pretty much) use Macs as well. I have been a very late convert to hard disk recording for my studio and went with Carillon (very high end pro audio PC) because that is what Steinberg (my hard disk recording application provider) use to build and test their software on, and also the support from Carillon is top notch - but I bought the Carillon three years ago; if starting now I would have gone Mac. The Carillon only gets used for hard disk recording though.

For personal use (as well as any future studio upgrades) there is no question that I will be going Mac all of the way. You are bang on about the viruses with Microsoft products. When using a PC with microsoft internet explorer and an i-book at my place through BT broadband, the difference in pop-ups and virus penetration is amazing. On the basis that there will always be hackers who are trying to bring down microsoft and there never seems to be anyone targeting Macs then it is a no brainer; Taragh only uses the firewall that is built into her i-book no need for Norton etc.

I find your comments about the sound quality in the midrange interesting as I have found the same thing but put this down to having a pro-audio converters and had thought that you would get a different result using a 'hifi' DAC. Hmmmm.

I will be demoing an i-book/m-audio using AIFF files versus a Quad 99 and an i-book/maudio/Quad 99 & my Wadia (using the digital in on the Quad and Wadia) soon and will let you know how I get on. I will need a DAC to go with the Mac and am thinking that the Quad will give me a good DAC but also the ability to still be able to play CDs 'conventionally' if I want to; but now that the carillon has gone back to the studio I really miss i-Tunes at home!

Cheers to both of you.

Dominic

 

Dominic,

I'm using a 15" G4 Powerbook with external firewire HD and outputting via firewire to an M Audio Firewire Audiophile. The Dac in this is very average, but OK if you need something to get up and running with.

The M Audio, also converts the firewire signal to SPDIF for feeding to an offboard processor, as well as providing a headphone amp, and the DAC. I will soon be feeding this SPDIF into a quality DAC, at the moment it feeds a Rotel AV processor. What I can say is that musically I am losing nothing compared to a mid price CD transport.

There is a possible loss of extension in the HF, but I'm past caring about that - it's just great to be able to listen to background music for hours and never know what's coming on next. I say do it, certainly with a high end Dac on the end of it, it will offer more than adequate performance.

The only issue is the cost! I'm using the 15" with Superdrive. Even with the new price, it's £1,750. Then you'll need the Firewire adaptor (£200) and a good external drive or two (£200-£400). Then you will want to add the bluetooth mouse and keyboard (£120). before you know it, you've dropped £2,500. Still I can now sit on the sofa with the bluetooth mouse, bring iTunes up on the plasma, select a playlist and the Visualiser, and just chill, whilst showing a slideshow of my recent holiday snaps. I could not acheive that with the Eclipse!

 

Merlin how are you viewing this on a plasma? Could I do it on my TV?

 

Merlin, would you try out this utility?

http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/13252

Its free for 14 days and seems to trim the really harsh shit off the top of the treble, early go is encouraging.

 

Merlin thanks for the post. Very interesting feedback about the Audiophile; I am familiar with the spec but have never heard one. I think that the answer is undoubtedly to go with a high quality DAC (be that pro-audio eg Apogee or consumer). You are right about the 'past caring' bit; as far as I am concerned the benefits of your and Gary's setup is the removal of hassle etc and on balance is preferable to us who wish to go down this route.

I'm trying to maximise the use of the powerbook to make it more of a complelling financial proposition ie do not have to spend £500 on a DVDR, can use the powerbook as another resource in my studio ie use as another synth (or two) and lastly because I need the powerbook to access the internet; all in a good deal. If I just wanted a music server then I agree that it is an expensive option and I might go with something else. The flexibility that a Mac gives you is flexibility, and that is something most Hifi company media servers do not give you, ie fixed internal DAC and fixed storage etc

Are we to launch a 'CJ Ross style' 'come over to the Mac side' club? LMAO (absolutely meant in the most positive of terms!)

Dominic

PS There is a very good article in this months Sound on Sound magazine concerning backing up audio hard disk data and as a non-techie this was very useful for me as one method of RAID is, I believe, more risky than no RAID at all!

 

At the moment Gary, I'm just taking an S Video feed from the Powerbook and using the dual display facility on the Mac so I guess you could easily do it with an S - Scart. The display settings allow for setting to TV. As the setting is different from the main displays, I have found that it is best to not mirror them, but to drag items from one to the other, either to the left or the right.

I've ordered a 10m DVI lead for my new place, so will use that in future. I'll be running it into a lowend LCD projector, so I shouldn't have too many probs reading the posts in future!

It's great to stick on some dub, turn down the lights and have the visualiser on screen Something of a "herbal" experience.

Strangely I'm not getting any harshness in the treble. I have always experienced that with Optical connections (with the exception of the Chord Dac).

Dominic,

It's a bitch to really justify. But it's sure fun

 

I'm scared :duck:

my finger is hovering over the 'order' button for a G5...


if this G3 wasn't so damned unstable i wouldn't even be considering it, but the crashing, stalling, USB problems, and the lack of any kind of second hand market on upgrades (PCI IDE card = £100, PCI GFX card = £100...), has left me with the thought that i'm probably better off cutting my losses... :crazy:

that and the fact i can just afford a G5 if i go for one of their finance options (even though the thought of parting with over £1400, in the long run, does trouble me :cry:


finger's still hovering.... merde

i think i'll hold off for now, see if i can't spend today getting the g3 to stop falling over, and think about it some more when i'm not sleep deprived

 

Mike why is the G3 unstable, what does it specifically do and what OS are you running?

The G3 range was generally really good.

pm me if you need specific help.

 

I've owned several G3s over the years and all have been rock solid, and nowadays there are cheap upgrades a plenty to be had on eBay. I sold a PCI IDE card on there a few months back for about 50 or 60quid and have seen graphics cards go for pretty low prices. I got a 32mb Radeon ( for running a second display) for 50 odd quid not too long ago.

Cant say i'd want to be using OS 10.x on a G3 for anything too taxing though.

On a side note - if you're thinking of spending 1400quid on a G5 I take it you'd be getting the 1.6 model. I wouldn't bother - instead i'd source a used (or refurbished from somewhere like Cancom UK) 1.2 or 1.4 dual G4 as you'll see better performance over the G5.

 

As usual though Tomson you shouldn't be just looking at processor speed. The G5 is using a whoile new arcitecture for handling data and this is a significant step forward in use with things such as Photoshop.

If I had one gripe with the G5 over the G4 its the lack of internal harddrive space.

 

it's odd... some days it'll run happily (loads of safari windows, ichat, itunes, mail etc) for hours on end, and others, it'll fall over when loading itunes or accessing a drive. quite unpredictable.

here's a good example, just this minute i was playing music in iTunes & browsing a site in safari. i scroll down the page, wham, the screen freezes... another crash. i'm going to open her up, make sure nothing's worked its way loose.


it was looking over the finance options that tempted me. i'd get a lot more use out of a G5 than this old dog (which is only usable as a music server and web browser, it doesn't have the muscle to do much else)...


and, i don't do ebay

 

Was actually talking real world performance using Photoshop, vector packages etc - been using a 1.6 G5 and its verging on sluggish using PS CS (base G5 set up but with 2gb of Ram). Compared to the dual 1.2 G4 I was using previously it was a definite step backwards. Shame the G4s sound like a wind tunnel though.

But the 1.6 is a tad stripped down when compared to the proper dual G5s- no PCI-X support, slower bus speed and ram etc. Still faster than my home machine though

Did some big, hi-res packaging comps on a dual 2Ghz recently and was very impressed - treated 400mb+ files like they weren't even there.

 

Snigger, I couldn't stretch to the dual G5, trouble with apple is they don't put enough ram in the box, and having to buy two strips each time can be expensive. The good news is I hit America Monday and will be checking the prices of ram over there. Thing is when you compare to other manufacturers you can see that some of that money you spend is going towards a quality product much like HIFI so you have to accept somethings will need to be purchased afterwards.

I don't know what PCI-X is, but presumably some people need it. However I tend to find on these types of technologies that people who need PCI-X for instance most likely need something more powerful than a base model.

Conversely my Step Dad bought a brand new Sony Vio desktop recently and it didn't even have basic firewire! Jesus christ the problem with PCs is most people are buying three year old hardware with a newer processor bolted on being strangled in a new plastic box, apple isn't guilty of that lets be honest.

I have the 1.6 model and so far its been a dream apart from a knackered power supply which was soon replaced, but as usual in life I hanker after its bigger siblings.

The wife to very soon be is still reeling from the fact I got the G5 8 months after purchasing a brand new G4, still its all good fun whilst we are young.

I am working hard to resolve some of my music issues on the mac and have to say I have made significant head way, the music is very listenable now with a combination of Volume Logic and a nifty application called Detour which enables you to route audio from any application anywhere you want, as a result only itunes comes out the stereo now and nothing else.

 

oops - didn't mean to diss your 1.6. :nuno:
Its still light years ahead of the Cube i'm working on at the moment. Especially as it has an annoying tendency to turn itself off whenever you attach anything via Firewire.

I completely agree with you about the ram situation though. Recently I've been looking into getting a portable to take into client offices if they dont have any macs for me to work on but am a little put off by the inclusion of only 1 ram slot in the iBooks - as 512mb of ram can be had for about 80-100quid but 1GB is about 4 times that.

 

i know what you mean wrt RAM, and their prices :yikes: unreal.

512Mb modules for the G5, from Crucial, are £70, so can't see how they justify their prices.

but anyway, i think i'll hold off on that shiny new G5, for now.


mr G3 seems happy, i fed him an extra 64Mb or ram, which he gobbled up, and wiggled the heatsink a bit we'll see if he continues to play nice


[edit] jeebus! i really need to get rid of this old monitor, it's murdering my eyes :cry: thankfully i have a tft at work i can nick

 

I am Death :torkmada: muahahaha!


kind of annoyed at myself here, in a fit of drunken upgratitus i've managed to kill the G3... at first i thought it was just the PSU, but it looks like it might have been terminal for the rest of the system. it'll probably take months to source a replacement PSU, so i think i'm going to go ahead and try to get a new system.

I'm torn between a Dual G4, or the G5 1.6. the G4 seems to be better for me right now: it's cheaper; and uses P-ATA, so i can just slot on the drive from the G3 (which has a lot of music i don't have on CD anymore); and SMP should mean it's not too sluggish when i want to actually do some work on it... the only thing the G4 lacks is connectivity: no USB 2.0, no digital audio (the extra bandwidth is handy, and the optical output would mean i could do away with my Sonica...). S-ATA->IDE converters are easy to find, so the S-ATA isn't really an issue... thinking about noise too, aren't the G4's supposed to sound like a 747 taking off?
with the options i'm looking at there's only a tenner in it, which makes deciding between them even harder.

gah, so hard to decide