Good secondhand speakers for £6-700... suggestions?

Word of advice

Bub

BMW's look vulgar and are the vehicle of estate agents and double glazing salemens and the like.

If you want style and practibilty, go for a Jag. The S Type is really good and they hold their price well. It is both sporty and sensible if you get my meaning.

If you buy a car, you have to feel comfortable with it and you are going to look like a spiv in the BMW.

Regards

Mick

 

Hi Mick,

I don't like the jag's 'retro' styling, it's a bit self-conscious for me.

I am a spiv, didn't you know?

 

Bub

"I am a spiv, didn't you know?"

True but there is no need to advertise it.

Regards

Mick

 

having been away for about a fortnight, I've just read this thread from its beginning, and very interesting it has been - until I came across this car drivel. just how you reckon to fit stereo Harbeth Compacts in the models you've discussed, I'm not sure.

Dunc, as you know I'll be auditioning speakers soon - now that the room has been refurbished - so I'm very interested in your Quest - was thinking of trying your Actives ...

 

bub,
my japanese suggestions went down like a lead baloon eh? never mind how about the car that has actually been described as a 4 door tvr? a holden hsv gts s? 5.7 liters supercharged, 507 bhp 457 lb/ft of torque, 0-60 in 4.6 and 0- 100 in 10.0, not very common at all and a noise like the end of the universe with go to outrun it?
failing that and given your admission of spivishness i reckon a bentley turbo would be the ideal rocket propelled armchair for you to whisk the kiddies about in. look for a fbsh under 100k miles early 90's version for about 20k.
cheers


julian

 

Mick, all this talk of Spivs (pot,kettle,black) what did Aufur' Daley drive then mate I do believe he was naims sarf' east dealer wasn't he

 

If you're looking for real class, a Bristol 411 (pre twin headlamp version), mint condition at around £30K, would fit the bill.

 

Hmm, cars. Lots of cars. Fair enough.

Anyway, Ditton, what are you considering? My Active 10s are not 100% sold yet - they're currently in the possession of Retro Reproductions, down on Leith Walk, but I haven't finalised any deals with him. I've got some other things to sell to/swap with Retro, so it might not be too rude of me to sell the 10s privately even now.... I suppose if nothing else you could always go and buy them off him. I'm sure he'd be happy to let you listen to them in any case!

I will say though that I had a good long listen to the Active 20s in the shop yesterday, driven by a Linn Karik (could be better, but I guess it's not too bad) and an EAR preamp, and I fell in love with them in a big way. With the EAR preamp at the helm they didn't show the slightest bit of harshness or overactive upper-midrange, and they just sounded soooo sweeeeeeet... Mmmmmm... I could've sat there listening to them all day. And the dynamics... and the bass...! Mmmmm....

So I'm thinking I may scrounge up what I can (read: sell everything!) and get myself a pair of Active 20s, and end my Speaker Quest a wee bit earlier than I expected. (Good ol' ATC - I thought I might end up going back to them in the end. ) The thing is, a new pair of 20s is £2700, which is dangerously close to the price of a 2nd-hand pair of Active 50s.........!!! :JOEL:

Speaking of big ATCs, I went 'round to Glasgow today to see the Devil, who very graciously hosted me for an afternoon of disc spinning and foot tapping courtesy of his mighty Active 100s. Ooh, that was fun! He's got a full-on Naim/Mana system, and a very interesting and rather unique turntable, so I wasn't sure how it was going to sound.

It was certainly different to just about every other system I'd heard (the closest was probably my previous Meridian 507/ATC preamp/Active 10 setup, funnily enough!), and took a little getting used to, but its appeal was immediate - as the Naim/Mana cliché goes, it really gets your juices flowing and your feet tapping and head bobbing. Though, as a bit of a budding "audiophile" type myself, I was initially taken aback by the lack of a "proper" soundstage and corresponding sweet spot - he's got 'em set up to sound good wherever you are in the room. But once the music gets going, and the incredible realism, effortless dynamics, and fantastic ability to get a beat across (I believe Naimies call this "groove", but I wouldn't know), you forget about the lack of a soundstage and just enjoy the music.

The Devil likes his music up front and in your face (in places almost grabbing you by the throat - in a good way ), so the balance was a bit forward and energetic for my tastes - I think for my own system I'd prefer it a little more relaxed. It had a lot of energy in the upper midband - seemingly the same area as the "sheen" I mentioned previously, but it's not the same thing. The sheen of my own system bothered me and detracted from realism and enjoyment; the forwardness in the Devil's system didn't, at least not once my ears were accustomed to it (didn't take long). And in any case, it disappeared entirely once his wonderful turntable got going.

Yes, the turntable. I've never really had any reason to be interested in vinyl - it was before my time, so I don't have a record collection or even a basic record deck, so it seemed a bit silly to consider starting from scratch in a format of dubious merit based on the rantings and ravings of a few diehard vinyl-heads, especially seeing as I have what I consider to be a rather competent CD-based system, and would have to spend a fair bit (in my eyes) to get similar quality from a turntable. So I was very interested to hear a proper vinyl-based system. I heard a few record decks at the Hifi Show, but none of them sounded any better than CD really - different, sure, but not particularly better (nor worse).

But the Devil's vinyl setup is very nice. Actually, it started off sounding not so hot - he's recently upgraded to more Mana so the deck had recently been taken apart and moved about, so apparently it needed to settle in a bit. Sounds unlikely (to me), but it definitely improved over the course of a couple hours. We started off listening to about half and half CD and vinyl, the record deck sounding (to my ears) similar to his CDS-2, but softer and less detailed - i.e. not so hot. But after a while we noticed it started sounding really good (the Devil said it sounded off initially, and now it was back to how it should be.)

I concede it may have had to do with the two (small! honest!) bottles of Beck's I had consumed by that time, but I doubt it. It just sounded really damn good. I'm not sure how to describe it, but it just painted a fantastically cohesive sonic picture (I didn't just say that did I?) It didn't sound like individual sounds placed on a background - it sounded like an acoustic microcosm (or, in the case of the Active 100s' output, not-so-microcosm!), a musical whole. (Somebody stop me before I become a What Hifi reviewer! Aaaargh!) Oh, and the upper-midrange forwardness that initially took me aback about the system - gone. Everything sounded completely natural and real. Absolutely lovely.

Sadly, the vinyl fun had to end somewhat prematurely (I certainly could've gone on listening to it into the wee small hours!) But it was enough of a lesson in the goodness of vinyl that my interest has increased from a mild curiosity to a definite pique... I shall have to speak to Mr. Retro Reproductions about getting me started on the path to vinyl... I won't say I'm a newfound member of the Official Vinyl Fanclub, but I'm definitely going to give it a go. I have nothing at stake (particularly if I buy secondhand), so if it sounds like shite, I'll happily chuck it and stick with my beloved 507. Besides, it's going to cost money, something I don't have much of at all at the moment - and any money I do have will most likely be very soon vaporised in the name of Active 20s/50s... So it's a long-term project.

Anyway, yeah, what are your thoughts Ditton? If you're really interested in my Active 10s, drop me a PM (or ring me) and we might be able to work something out. Or drop in at Retro and have a chat with Graeme. He's a very decent bloke, and I'm sure we could reach an agreement between the three of us one way or another. You could have a demo of them at the same time (and perhaps the SCM-7s and/or SCM-12s..?)

Dunc

P.S. - And to those of you who might think the big ATCs can't do bass... tut tut! You're clearly just not playing music with real bass in it! I dare you to put on something like Massive Attack or Leftfield (or Lauryn Hill for that matter ), crank the volume, and tell me that with a straight face! :MILD:

 

Hi Duncan,

Nice to meet you, and I'm glad you enjoyed the rig.

I've recently gone up to phase 9 (some s/h 'stages and a 'frame came my way) with the Ninja, CDS2 & preamp, and whilst the CDP & preamp seem OK, the wallshelf installation under the Ninja always gives me a bit of trouble setting-up. I'm still not 100% convinced that I've got it right, but it was certainly sounding close yesterday afternoon. I'll get there in the end....

It's always a wrench to turn it off, I usually find myself nailed to the sofa till all hours. There's a magic with the Ninja (and normal LP12s btw) which CD doesn't really 'do'. But it is so sensitive to sub-optimal set-up, and it always takes a day or two to settle down after doing anything to it, maybe it's the suspension, I don't really know. Nice to see a vinyl convert...

The Flaming Lips were totally sensational - one of the very best concerts I've ever been to - if you ever get the chance to see them live, do.

If I were you, I'd hold out for a pair of active 50s s/h. Next time I'm in Edinburgh, I'll give you a shout?

All the best,

James

P.S. Any and all 'credit' for how my rig sounds now must go to John Watson of Mana. The man is a genius.

 

Hi Dunc,

Seeing as you seem to be working your way through the ATC range now, we'll start calling you the "ATC Meister" soon , have you heard the floor standing version of the 20's - the 20T ?

I quite like the 20T (SL) 's, worth considering IMO if you have room for something like the 50's but maybe not quite the cash.

 

All good stuff! I'll bear it in mind, but will probably end up going for the boring tame old M5. I don't want to draw attention to myself with anything unusual, nor a flashy Merc or Jag.

 

In that case James why not just chuck the Ninja, CDS2, 52 and ATCs and grab a Bush turntable and an Aiwa midi-system from Argos and let the Mana do the rest

Michael.

 

Hi Michael,

You really have to hear it to understand where I'm coming from with the Mana thing. Yes, the gear would sound OK on another stand, but it just wouldn't have 'that thing' which it does have. Musicality?

Honestly. Trust me on this. I've owned the CDS2 and 52 since my pre-Mana days.

Mana is why I don't want/need to upgrade any of the boxes any more. It gives a very unfair advantage.

Come & listen.

P.S. John must take full credit for the Ninja, btw - he designed and built it - the jewel in the crown.

P.P.S. A friend visited some time ago, I played him a particular album, which he later bought on CD....I got an email saying the CD sounds broken, and could I look out for a copy on vinyl please? I bet the CD isn't broken - he has no Mana!

 

James - I'm prepared to believe that all your Mana has made a substantial improvement to your system (to your ears anyway, which is all that matters). It's simply not the case though that all the credit can go to Mana.

Michael.

 

James, why not come out yourself, you've only been to the standard pink/fish mana haunts, why not make a trip and come and listen to some interesting systems, We can achieve with 2 pieces of curcitry what mana requires many, many levels to come near & then more of rest of whaich mana simply cannot complete satisfactory, why resist?, it's worth the trip, and you'll get to listen to some bass, not just the room filling bits, oh and a couple of good turntables 2, why not make a long week of it, I'm sure the guys won't mind putting you up, I have no problem, it's got to be worth the time off, go for it, leave the cave, you never know, the letters j & w may well be furthest from your mind after.
Plus it'll give you a chance to wind that new barge up be you'll getting Wm

 

Hi Tony,

Yes, but in the New Year maybe?

This is the Mana Effect:

"It was certainly different to just about every other system I'd heard..."

"It just sounded really damn good."

"a fantastically cohesive sonic picture ... a musical whole."

"Everything sounded completely natural and real. Absolutely lovely."

This is precisely what Mana does to a system if it's correctly set-up. If it's off slightly, not so good. If it's off in a big way, it sounds awful. Which explains why some people don't like it - they botched the set-up. I know because I've botched the set-up myself many times including this one. It's easily done, if people would only admit it.

I'm on my third attempt to get phase nine right with the TT, and I had to reset the other two stacks earlier in the week after adding the two stages - they are now fine, the TT is getting there.

 

James that would be good

Dunc, how would you charactorise the Bass of the Neats MF7's (what amps did you hear the on again please) to that of ATC 100's of James set up? what really did it for you in both set ups? and how did the ATC's compare to the top end of the Neats, cheers Wm

 

:SLEEP:

 

WM, I really didn't have that much time with the Neats at the show. I'm afraid I can't remember what amps they were driven by - sorry. What struck me about them was the fantastic top end - very sweet and airy. TBH, if there's one area where the high-end ATCs are perhaps not quite among the best in the world, it's the tweeters. ATC treble is very functional in that it gets the job done, without sounding particularly sweet or involving - but it's so well integrated into the rest of the frequency spectrum, that you just don't notice at all. Differentiating between the output of the midrange driver and the tweeter on an ATC active speaker is pretty much impossible IMO without putting your ear up to them.

So with ATCs the tweeter just does its job and gets out of the way. Other high end speakers I've heard (e.g. the Neat Ultimatums, B&W Nautilus, and others) can sound sweet & airy, which is seductive, but I'm graduatlly coming to the conclusion that it may indeed be artifical. I don't know for sure, though. The Neats certainly are lovely in the treble.

As for the bass, I honestly can't compare - I spent maybe 10-15 minutes listening to the Neats, whereas I spent nearly 5 hours listening to James' ATCs! From my experience, ATC bass is fundamentally honest (as is the rest of the ATC sound). It doesn't do anything that isn't on the recording. Most speakers IMO have either an intentional or unintentional (due to cabinet resonances, poorly tuned ports, inadequate bass drivers, or whatever) boost in the bass - simply because this is what people expect nowadays. If there isn't a good *thump* to the bass it must be wrong! And it's not always an obvious BOOM like with many budget speakers - a lot of high quality speakers have a bass boost that is clean and tight and tuneful, so it doesn't sound bad at all, just big. ATCs on the other hand have no such thing. If there isn't much bass in the recording, you won't get much bass out of the speakers. If there is bass in the recording, however, the ATCs will damn well tell you about it!

In any case, if you find the ATCs overly bass light you can always just EQ it (i believe the pro versions of ATC's actives have bass EQ dials) for a boost. ATC woofers are certainly capable of taking anything you can throw at them!

Dunc

 

Bass

Duncan

I very much doubt if Bubs ATC's are bass light, WM said the same about my Briks. Some speakers sound like a Ford escort system, driven by baseball capped youths, where you can hear the bass 100 yards up the road.

Good bass is realistic not enhanced.

At the end of the day, we all have different preferences.

Regards

Mick