Good secondhand speakers for £6-700... suggestions?

Re: Bass

Mick, how about wayward, mis timed & just well er. not good However Mr spiv, a I know where ther's a nice pair of 6 X 9" 3 - ways, would sort out your bass problem just fine Mate.

Dunc, EQing? really, must be a fundemental flaw if you have too?, I find maybe that foom filling ability is often mistaken, for 'proper bass', the ability to go deep, very tight & time to a pin head, with serious attack & cone control, the realistic thwack and decay as the skin reverbs on the snare (trail body), Not many speakers can do this (even ultra expensive ones) and I've only heard one pair of ATC's (these where still fully active and used Chord spm 1200 & 600 guts, the big 7 towers) do this, ceratinly not the MF7's, big room filling no doubt, fab top end (safe) but if it right and don't time, then why take lesser option ?, some things you just can't fudge, the ability to produce cohesive music that times is paramount, every thing else is a waste of materials, atc do give the matter of fact in an accurate way for sure. being also very transparent they give you what you dish into it
So what in essence your saying then Duc, is that most speaker manufacturers 'Build in that glow factor' that makes you smile, so they can shift a few boxes ? ( I know a few that do) and that truely accurate reproduction is down the pro-forma PRO boys then ?
Selection of the front end is just a small niche' in the grand picture then?, as I do like to say, if you going to spend a lot of cash on speakers, for £8K they got to do it all, and the vast majority DONT, they may be good at 1 or 2 things, but the Whole package' aint a hope.
Its's also good to have an AV guy who likes music too, hope for you yet Dunc, if you like this style of presenation, have you listen to the Dynaudio active monitors with built in digital amplification?, I believe loud and clear are Dyn dealers?, may well be worth a try or getting the passive version of ATC, and using some 'different juice to them' Wm

 

Re: Re: Bass

The EQ is there to simulate the room gain prevelent in many untreated living rooms Tony. I have to say, that your perception of real bass is dictated to no small degree by your room gain, which it must be said is exceptional.

Given that the thwack you talk of has more to do with level than extension, the room is far more important here than the actual speaker IMO. The visceral thwack is generated in the mid and upper bass areas, and given that virually any loudspeaker can operate happily in this region, the results will be dictated by the dominant room modes.

Your current room has a steady rise from about 300hz down to 30hz. This is quite probably why well balanced speakers with real bass, like the Proac 3.8, just overload your room and sound bass heavy. The truth is that in a more typical room, many speakers with considerably superior bass extension and distortion to your Meadowlarks, will still provide less LF gain than you experience.

But don't you ever think how a puny 7" pulp driver can possibly deliver clean bass at high levels? Without some kind of room gain, I believe it defies the laws of physics somewhat.

 

Merlin, thats a £10 I won Knew you would answer that one, Strange they do seem to do the same thing in left me see now, 6 of the 7 other rooms they've been in (ranging upto 20 foot long), to pretty well much the same degree, the only one they didn't was a small scout hall, they were admittedly they were well lost, and I'm sure those Might 15" mothers would have come in to there own there, with poise and accurate grace for sure, personaly I feel more than happy with the MeadowLark sound, so much so I bought another pair, seems the same puny 7" driver in your merlins preforms even less so
good to see you back Tis true many a fine speaker goes deeper and exhibits less distortion, and far better blah, blah no doubt what so ever, however it's what they sound like thats counts, best facts and figs in the world, don't equate to the best sound, who's evers names on it
How I like my sound is different from how yourself/James/Steve M/Timpy or Alex S likes their sounds, however if it doen't cut it, it's launched (doesn't make it right in anyone else's eye's) but mine and that me old mucker is all thats counts for my personal sounds, other use their own point of reference, coloured or uncoloured. T.

 

The last thing I'd say against isobariks is that they are bass-light!

 

To quote from one esteemed magazine:

In the words of one of the Uk's finest soul bands of the eighties " It's just an Illusion"

Boom Boom Shake The Room

There is real bass and perceived bass. The Meadowlarks are damned good at the latter, no question, and make great music for the money. Their in room response is gently falling before rolling off above 11khz, so the percieved balance will favour the nether regions, and they will probably respond well to livelier speaker cables, such as AZ and QED. The Merlins on the other hand, having inherently far greater treble resolution and midrange subtlety, don't artificially boost the bass, and hence let more of the music's subtle nuances through

 

Bet that took a bit of imagination to come up with!

 

Mike, thanks for the tip on the review, I particularly like the last passage


"Soundstaging snapped into focus with commensurate senses of depth, lateral coherence, and inner illumination that were realistic, involving, and utterly magical."

"But right away, I was captivated by the quality and quantity of the Shearwater's bass: extraordinarily taut and snappy, yet richly detailed and warmly focused. I ran the Hot Rods through a gauntlet of percussion and bass to confirm my initial impressions of their transient speed and dynamics, low-end weight and accuracy, midrange transparency and articulation, and top-end smoothness and extension. On a 1977 LP reissue of the 1950 Edgard Varèse sessions produced by Jack Skurnick and originally released on EMS 401 (Finnadar SR 9018), there is a satisfying oomph and earthy undertone to the big calfskin-headed bass drum on this legendary performance of Ionisation that I could feel right in the small of my back. The Shearwater reproduced both the initial attack and its complex reverberations as gong-like overtones resonated, skin against skin."


"Likewise, on a splendid vacuum-tube recording of Valery Gergiev's spirited rendition of Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring with the Kirov Orchestra (Philips 289 468 035-2), the Shearwaters handled the colossal bass-drum transients on "Augurs of Spring: Dances of the Young Girls" with graceful aplomb. Through lesser speakers, that initial attack can cause the bass driver to hit its end-stops, but the Meadowlarks simply shrugged, capturing all the layered harmonic mystery of the big drum's complex decay even as massed horns spoke without a hint of glare. Rhythm and pacing were exceptional; beats seemed to stop and start on a dime, with superb lateral imaging and a holographic soundstage. Better yet, there was an inviting ease and naturalness to the presentation, a believable sense of the recording's acoustic venue, with a warmly ingratiating midrange."

"Goodness In, Goodness Out
In the Meadowlark Hot Rod Shearwater, designer Pat McGinty's determination to maintain the absolute integrity of the musical waveform has resulted in a presentation that is accurate without being analytical: spectrally balanced, dimensionally full, and a dream to drive. Talk about cruise controlâ€â€it displayed terrific speed and bass extension with a modestly powered solid-state integrated amp like the Simaudio i-5, and a gloriously deep, detailed midrange with a tubed juggernaut such as the VTL MB-450. Stacked up against the best two-way floorstanding designs I've experienced up close and personal, the no-compromise HotRod Shearwater more than held its own against such worthies as the ProAc 2.5 and the Merlin VSM (which employ roughly the same ScanSpeak woofer), and for considerably less money. "

 

Ah Tony, nothing like selective cherry picking eh

Still, never said they are a bad speaker, they are damned good for the money. I would hazard a guess that Chip felt somewhat differently long term, hence the demotion to a Class B product listing. Still I bet they sold a lot of Shearwaters on the back of the subjective part of that review. It was also interesting to note that he felt they weren't really a speaker that did rock music full justice. And there was me thinking you were a bit of a Donington vet! Still well done I say, and it just goes to prove the point made in this thread.

Seems a speaker with +/-12db measured response can be musically satisfying, that'll come as a bit of a shock to Dat

Oh and Henry! That's really sad Don't tell me you've got their greatest hits on vinyl

 

Merlin, they are many a speaker that will, do the rock thang' in a more 'In yer face rock manner' for sure, but not the rest in an equally good manner, however the key to they performance lies in the last passage of the review, the just let through what you give them, seems maybe the front end is reasonable after all
They won't knock the house down with 120DB spl's or move the earth along the lines of you Proper awesomes , but what they do, they do seriously well, a better all rounder at that price point is hard beastie to find. T.

 

Re: Re: Bass

The EQ on the pro ATCs is just a standard feature of studio monitors, its purpose being to help correct for unfortunate room acoustics or compromised positioning, not the speaker's own deficiencies. It's a feature I would welcome in more mainstream domestic hifi, as home hifi sound quality is often compromised by wayward room modes, poor acoustics generally, and unfortunate positioning concessions to the significant other...

In total agreement - ATCs reproduce exactly what you put in, and do so with extreme transparency and honesty. They're also extremely quick, even the big'yuns, and time like muthas.

You hit the nail on the head with the "glow factor". I'm not entirely convinced about pro monitors, though. To be honest, I haven't heard a lot. I can say that ATC's pro monitors perform identically to their domestic ones. I think it's a testament to ATCs' accuracy and honesty that they can be appreciated so readily by both audio pros and enthusiasts alike.

I don't know why you think that to be my position. As you said, ATCs give you EXACTLY what you give them - so if you want them to sound good you have to feed them with a quality source.

I WOULD say, however, that for someone on a limited budget (aren't we all?), the BIGGEST improvement in quality will come from a speaker upgrade. Take a budget system (say £300 per component) and I would definitely say that £2K spent on a speaker upgrade will give you a HELL of a lot more of an improvement than that same £2K spent on a CD player. Amplification is slightly trickier, as often the higher end speakers are more difficult to drive, and good speakers can actually sound bad if driven by an inadequate amp...

But I accept that this is only my opinion (based on my own experiences), and that others' will differ.

I concede that there may be speakers in the world that are better in certain areas than James' Active 100s, but I would contest that the ATCs are not specialists in any one "area" of sound reproduction - they do everything to a VERY high standard. Personally, I'd rather have a speaker that does everything very well than one that does, say, treble to a superior degree, but has crap bass - or that times perfectly, but is undynamic.

However, once again, I concede that this is my opinion, and that others' will differ. I also concede that I haven't heard every speaker in the world, so I may be grossly ignorant.

Thanks WM, but I was originally a hifi kinda guy - only got into the whole AV thang about 18 months ago, and I never let my AV pursuits compromise my hifi.

As to the Dynaudios, I'm a big fan of the brand, and I had seriously considered the Contour 1.3 Mk. IIs (I especially wanted to do a head-to-head between the Contours and the ATC SCM-12s), but based on the past few days, I think I'm going to have to go back to active ATCs. 20s at least, maybe 50s if I'm lucky.

Dunc

 

I wouldn't say the ATCs are the best in the world because I haven't heard every speaker, and it would be a meaningless opinion anyway. To my way of thinking, they're the best I've heard, and they happen to suit the room I have very well indeed. If you were to compare, say DBLs (!) and a NAP 500 (??), I know where my money would very likely go, with over £10k left in the bank, and better sounds.

At £8,500 new out of the box, including the amp/crossover packs, they are the hi-fi bargain of the century, and I don't think anything else comes even close at that money.

They are startlingly fast & dynamic and can make you jump. They are also very 'delicate' when needed, they'll play any type of music even-handedly, though they were primarily designed to reproduce acoustic instruments accurately.

People see a port and wonder about bass overhang. Others worry about unbalanced connection - one dealer even said that the 52 wouldn't work with them because of this....

 

Actually, I don't have any of their albums... yet!

 

Classic quotes from this discussion

From WM:

Tone, without being cheeky, what experience do you have with Mana in order to arrive at that conclusion?

LOL! Apart from Tone's 7 inch 'wonder woofers'

From Merlin:

Erm...yes, quite.

But these are special 'bass-meister' cones

Tone, when you've got a couple of 12-inchers doing the biz (arf!) like some of us have, you can join the big boys bass playground :MILD:

Marco.

 

Wasn't Imagination's first album titled Imagination. Now there's imagination for you

Dunc,

If you are interested in the Dyns, do give the Air 6's (1.3 equivalents) or preferably 10's a listen. I had the 10's at home and have to say they are excellent value for money, given that you get effectively a Contour range standmount, 2 digital amplifiers and built in dac and dsp control for your money. I was so impressed I set up an account with the distributor. Perfect for AV, they are excellent monitors too, although many "music first mothas" will find their presentation a little prosaic!

 

Spendor's new film project: 'Honey, I shrunk the tape measure!'

Playing at an estate near u.

 

Whoa hold your horses

Marco

I have heard WM's little cones and they produced the heaviest bass I have ever heard. It was too heavy for my tastes, very unnatural, but his little seven incher did the business.

I still prefer my Briks but you cannot deny that he got bass.

Regards

Mick

 

Re: Whoa hold your horses

Mick I think the key there is the word Unnatural. I have yet to hear any cone with a small diameter produce natural unforced bass, the like of which is available from large panels or the bass drivers installed in the likes of the large ATC's, Spendors and Harbeths.

 

Hi Mick, I cannot comment on the OVERALL sound of Tone's system, as I haven't heard it. But I do know that it's physically impossible to get true, deep bass from such small drive units. There is simply insufficient cone radiating area.

What you heard, as Merlin so eloquently described, was the effect of room modes, and that's said with no disrespect to Tone.

Marco.

 

Room modes, Marco?

 

Room modes

Sorry, James. Silly me, I forgot that, in your erudite opinion, my room is the boom capital of Britain

Btw, on a different subject, are you still using Reference Tops on top of both your Mana stacks, i.e. for your CDS2 and 52?

If so, I've got something interesting for you to try...

Marco.