Good secondhand speakers for £6-700... suggestions?

Just for the record, the main relevant factors for a bass drive unit are cone area AND excursion. It is quite possible to have a small high-excursion driver with more bass output than a larger driver with less excursion.

It IS physically possible to get true, deep bass from small drive units, you just won't get much of it. After all, in the land of the 24" drive unit a 15" diameter driver looks pretty small. It's all relative. You can't break the old laws of physics but sometimes you can bend them a bit.

 

I agree with what you're saying - you're right in an absolute sense - but unfortunately 'true, deep bass' is pretty much indefinable, so it remains a term that to each person will have its own meaning. For me, it's something I experience only when listening to large speakers with large drive units driven by suitably powerful amplifiers. Loudspeakers with 7" drive units aren't part of that equation.

Reading some of WM's comments regarding bass, it seems that in his 'land' those laws are bent more often than not

Marco.

 

Marco, you are using largish speakers in a space which would be absolutely ideal for Wharfedale Diamonds. It's no wonder you have that chest-rattling boom in there.

Paul Duerden's Dyns would be too big for your room.

Your advice is so very clearly second-hand. Some of it is right, but no-one listens any more because of the 'ferrous' history you have. Writing pages of pseudoscience about metal in the room didn't do your credibility much good when you switched to Mana, now did it?

Now you are banging the 'multiple spurs' gong elsewhere, and I for one would rather take the late Julian Vereker's advice about spurs rather than yours. Ian Dales is an electrician, FFS, but will you listen?

OK, so tell me what I should do with the reference tops, you know you want to. :SLEEP:

 

What we really need is the "Bass Box Challenge".

We take an assortment of bass units and partner them with a decent speaker system (errrrh, Nonsuch 4s could be the thing). We work the bass speakers/subs through an active filter and decent power amp and hide them behind a curtain.

Then we play a choice of music and get the listening panel to make notes, including an estimate of driver and enclosure size.

I have no idea what would come out of this but I'd bet money that there would be some surprises.

How about it? Anyone up for it?

PS: It will have to be next year. My family is moving out of our house on Thursday. The place we're moving to won't be available until January so I'm off to Germany to stay with my in-laws (ok, less of that please).

Correspondence from me may be a little patchy for a while, although I will be hooked up to broadband once I get to Germany.

 

James, much as I could expose the inaccuracy of your last comments, I'll ignore the flawed logic and concentrate instead on offering up something more constructive.

When you answer the question I asked previously, I will then proceed.

Marco.

 

This sort of thing is typical, btw:

It just doesn't convince, really, does it?

 

Steve,

whereabouts will you be in Germany?

 

James, have you finished waffling? If not, let me know when you have. Then we can discuss the issue of your Reference Tops.

Later,
Marco.

 

In the Westerwalt, between Cologne (Koln) and Frankfurt. Any good? I won't have the speakers with me though. I'll bring me ears.

 

I can't be bothered TBH, there is no 'issue' with my ref tops.

 

I think the quote should read

"It is physically impossible to get true, deep bass at high levels from such small drive units"

It does rather depend on what you consider to be acceptable levels, and the fact that most of us sit in small rooms no more than 10ft from the speakers means that you can get away with midwoofers running at near their capacity most of the time.

Still, when you see those little babies flapping like there's no tomorrow, you have to wonder about it's effect on the midrange.

 

Oh, you've obviously been standing close to my speakers then!

 

Ah! The little cones look like they are being violently sick, wretching on an empty stomach, every time the kick drum hits home.

You should be careful with that Bill Laswell disc Neil. one of these days you will end up with 4.5" of clear polypropoline plastered across your face, and a twee voice coil wedged up your left nostril.

 

Good point, although at high volumes (assuming a room that's not too big for the speakers) the ear/brain complex would find it more difficult to detect.

Hey, everyone knows that a good big'un will beat a good small'un ** if you've got the space for it and an understanding spouse. However, it's all a question of compromise and for most listening rooms at volumes that many would consider to be reasonable ...

Anyway, there will always be a market for good miniatures (I hope).

And, lest we forget, a 105dB efficiency mid-band horn aficionado would say that all of our speakers are unacceptably compressed in the mids.

** this maxim does not of course apply to the designers. As Morduant Short used to say: "The superlative in the diminunative" (or something like that).

 

Wow, still going eh? oh you are so kind
Lets kill a couple of myths first
1. I've never said I had anything lower than 27hz in my listening room from stand alone speakers
2. You can generate a lot of volume of bass with a smaller driver, with more cone exsursion and a decent amplifier that CONTROLS said cone, like a grip of iron, Its never going to beat a 15" inch driver in the depth or volume stakes, however it can more than match it for speed and acceleration and accuracy, this then brings in room probs or pluses, a bigger driver in a smaller room, will simply over power it, having had both ATC100's and Proac 3.8 responces, I can verify that
The sofa shaking was purely due to the (Un modifed GR20's) front bass port reacting with the room (What Mick heard), giving real house shaking stuff, we used to bend the rules a little in Total car SPL's we take a shitty old sub, make a top notch sealed box and then port the box to the resonant frequency of the car body shell, hey presto free 2KW amp
Now the un modded GR20's did just this, pure accident for sure but a nice one
after tweeking this cut the room interaction by well over 1/2.
The Thwack I so love comes from, the Very dynamic speakers I used in competition installs (fully active 3 way cliff designs, stunning), and being only 24" or so away from the speakers
Now this is why, I have such a pickky time with kit, now James will boom boom tis, well that is how it may sound, however it's more than a light year from the actual sound.
The shearwaters, have totaly different charactor to the Gr20's, the bass is just so right, those that have heard will know, yes I still have so room interaction (tell me one that doesn't in a real world) however it's very minimal, and the thwack is between 55hz and 160khz, well above infamous 46hz +20DB hump (with the monitors).
Remember I play the drums, thwacks to me (In my professional capacity) are a mere 2 feet away, ultra tight and dynamicaly real, and don't have time to fully form before I here them (when playing) where if you in the audience it's different. I've tried to recreate that, besides a normal drum kit, doesn't go down to double bass depths.
I can get loud spls levels in the room (113), yes, combination of cracking speaker & decent distortion free amp
It won't do 120db for sure, neither will it pick you up and throw you round the room, but it plays music with poise grace and life, with dynamics I've yet to hear matched, which is important to me.
Marco, you asked how I could make that statement about mana & 2 pieces of curcirtry, fair point.
I have 2 customers with mana, not phase 37, but 3, also I have 4 levels, and my Brother has a few bars hanging around.
Now these guys have listened to what we can do, and we've listen to what they systems can do
Now If you liked what you heard, and it was better than mana at what mana did, without all that metal adorning your listening room, would you change it?
Yes the mana could possibly be not set up according to James, fair point, I can't answer that.
If you can answer that question, then you may want to come for a listen.
Anyway, hope thats help clear up some things. Wm

 

The point about an amplifier controlling the speakers is well made and should have been mentioned before.

BTW, I'm sure when I came round and listened to the Meadowlarks (briefly) I detected something at 26.85Hz. Did I just imagine it?

 

Steve, I do believe your being a loveable rouge, you not so bad speaker designer you

 

Sorry, what does this bit mean?

now James will boom boom tis, well that is how it may sound, however it's more than a light year from the actual sound.

Your room isn't large enough for the ATC100s, try the 50s?

I don't believe anything else will do what Mana does, it just gets better and better, phase nine is incredible.

 

James, I was just about to sort that out, before you beat me to it.

James will boom boom tis, well that is how it may sound, however it's more than a light year from the actual sound

Should read,

James, will say boom, boom & tis, is how it will sound, however thats more than a light year from the truth.

Your, second point, Level nine may well be amazing from YOUR point of view, and by your own admission, you haven't heard anyother system that comes close (except pogs).
Virtualy anything can emulated or created or manipulated, in the audio world James, you just have to put your mind to it
Even Julian accused moi, of turning his system into a Krell version, just by replacing one component, scary or what, just imagine what we could do, if we really wanted to.
In essence I'll sum it this way, by placing your system on 9 levels of mana, please list all the postive effects that man gives you (negitive ones as well), and these traits cannot be reproduced electronicaly in any way shape or form other than by stacking it on angle iron, Ok James reckon that might be a challenge

 

Please excuse my ignorance but what does level nine of Mana mean?

I would appreciate a concise answer from a Mana enthusiast but would be grateful if the answer didn't lead to a barrage of Mana and especially personal criticism for whoever is kind enough to respond. I genuinely would like to know.

PS: Tone, I'm guessing that I'm a rogue rather than a rouge (yes, I know that your hearing is better than your spelling). However, my wife, who's looking over my shoulder as I should be packing rather than playing forums, thinks that I've been at her lipstick.