Good secondhand speakers for £6-700... suggestions?

WM, once again demonstating that he doesn't, well, he just doesn't....

 

OK dat I'll play!

Firstly, turning it around a little bit, could you describe for me how you would expect a speaker flat from 39hz to 20khz to sound? What would be it's subjective strengths and weaknesses? How about things such as female vocals, soundstage depth and bass weight? Could you describe these subjectively for me, based on the data you have supplied?

I would be interested to know your views of the musical qualities of such a speaker, and indeed just how important you think that a totally level nearfield frequency response is to the design of a successful transducer.

 

I really can't understand this 'analysis' vs 'musical' thing that keeps cropping up all over the place.

If a transducer is accurate, and assuming the signal fed into it is good, it will sound like real music, i.e. 'musical'.

If it sounds like something else other than music - 'analysis' for instance - it cannot possibly be accurate.

I think some people confuse an 'etched' quality to the treble region with accuracy: it's not, it's just a form of colouration in the treble.

So there.

 

I agree with you about the ATCs. Whilst not having listened to the Active 10s, I've heard their big brothers, the Active 100s, and noted this midband 'sheen' myself. Consequently, it makes you wonder whether this sonic signature is inherent throughout the whole range. Personally, I put it mainly down to the lack of warmth normally associated with professional monitors compared to domestic designs; I get this effect sometimes with my SP100s, and it's something I believe you have to live with if you crave absolute neutrality above all else.

However, I feel that the amp packs contained within active ATCs have a definite character of their own, and contribute to the somewhat 'cool' overall balance of the combination; they simply lack 'emotion'. I believe that to hear what ATCs can really do actively, alternative amplification from another manufacturer is necessary; one whose expertise is derived solely from amplifier design and nothing else, and which forms a synergistic partnership with the ATCs to fully showcase their considerable talents. I'm a great believer in (if you can) assembling a system consisting only of components from manufacturers who specialise in one particular area. For me, it's a case of combining all the relative strengths of each manufacturer to get the best result. My opinion is that ATC make better speakers than amps. From what I've heard, a six-pack of Mana Stealth monoblocks (or ECS now) is the ultimate amp solution to go active with ATCs, although it is ludicrously expensive. However, there are other less expensive options available, including perhaps your Classe, which I believe when optimally set up in an appropriate configuration could out-perform ATCs on board amps.

With regard to your query about alternative speakers second hand, and given your particular requirements, I would have no hesitation recommending a pair of Harbeth HL Compact 7s, or even a pair of Linn Isobariks if your Classe has enough juice to drive them. Both are stand mount designs and are an absolute bargain second hand. You can get a decent pair of Briks for about £500-600, and I believe Tony Lonorgan who runs Pink Fish picked up a pair of Compact 7s recently also for around that price. Both of these designs produce very good bass, have an open and articulate midband, and an un-fatiguing top end. My only slight reservations would be about playing loud - I guess it depends on what you mean by 'loud'. The Briks will only play loud if the partnering amp(s) are up to it, and when they're on Mana supports (yes, you will have to budget for a second hand pair of Mana Brik stands), and the Harbeths will play loud, but not to ear-splitting levels, as they're not the most efficient design around.

Anyway, I hope all this helps, but to get the most from any new loudspeaker, you need to make sure things upstream are optimised as far as possible - I'm talking about the mains. So if you haven't done so already, install at least one dedicated spur to power your system. Preferably, if you can, install one spur for each component - sounds excessive I know, but believe me, the results are outstanding. A loudspeaker will only perform optimally if driven by amplification supplied with a clean supply of unrestricted current. When you hear the massive difference this makes, the effort involved is more than worth it :MILD:

Enjoy!

Marco.

 

This is a completely preposterous suggestion. I'm sure the 6-pack STEALTH sound good (and so they should for £24,000!!!). What is far from clear is how they compared with the purpose-designed agricultural ATC amps.

As I've said elsewhere, the £24k would be better spent elsewhere.

The ATC midband is the best I've ever heard, there is no 'sheen' (whatever that means) to my ears. But they are now on phase seven rather than four when you last heard them, so perhaps that's why it's gone if it was ever there in the first place.

 

James, I know where you are coming from but sadly we are not listening to musical instruments through our speakers, we are listening to a recording created by an engineer and eq'd, compressed and generally screwed around with.

So the object of a monitor is to hear exactly what the engineer is doing. The object of a good domestic unit is for me, to make listening a pleasure.

How would you rate the likes of Spendor and Harbeth for use as monitors as a matter of interest?

 

James, yes it's ok with the right gear maybe you should try some OK gear instead of your Naim equipment, and see what cooks

 

Merlin, you have a point of course. Having said that, I mostly agree with Bub. When I first started using Active 10s I was running a valve preamp with them, and a reasonably lush and warm CD player (the Meridian), thinking that was a good way to balance the ATC's relative lack of colour. As it turns out, I actually prefer them with more neutral sources and ATC's own (very transparent) preamp, and don't find the result unpleasant at all.

Basically, I decided I didn't want to hear an audio designer's view of what a John Coltrane record sounds like, but, as far as possible, what John Coltrane and Rudy Van Gelder captured on the master tape, warts and all. It's a more musically fulfilling approach, for me at least. YMMV.

-- Ian

 

Hi Merlin,

I've only heard Marco's Spendors. From what I heard, I think they are good, although a larger room would open them out a bit I should imagine. Never heard Harbeth. Fidelity to the recording (of musical instruments) is what Hi-Fi is all about. You can't 'improve' the recording.

WM, yes I know you don't like Naim. The sound of my system has changed markedly since you were here, and I'm completely satisfied with it. It does show up a poor recording, but that doesn't bother me.

 

Precisely, and it's the difficult act of balancing analysis with long-term 'listenability' that I feel active ATCs (driven by their on board amps) struggle with.

It's very hard to explain it in writing, but in my opinion, reproducing enjoyable music in the home is something different to critically analysing music in a recording studio; the criteria required to achieve success in one or the other is different, therefore (in some cases) different transducers are required for each job. Sometimes the 'warts and all' presentation of professional studio monitors, and their tendency to portray recording defects, distracts from the enjoyment of the music itself - that's about as simply as I can put it.

Thing is, all this doesn't really matter a damn because bub is obviously delighted with his ATCs, so what we think doesn't amount to a hill of beans. It'd be boring if we all agreed with each other, though!

Marco.

 

I did admit to prejudice...

I think it sounds like crossover distortion, or an old out of tune Naim amp.

Unfortunately since I've reviewed technical stuff and decided that Mosfets are inappropriate for audio amp output stages I cannot be neutral if I know what I'm listening to....

FWIW I think the only difference between a 'monitor' and a 'domestic' should be the quality of the finish and the carrying handles.

FWIW2 I reckon there would be an opportunity to improve the environment and power supply that the ATC crossover works within. Source first and all that... Way less than £24000 too.

Paul

 

Guys, you wil notice that we are discussing ATC, Harbeth and Spendor, all of which I like. It's Mackie that's the problem, and that ruler flat response curve.

I was interested to hear what you thought of Harbeth and Spendor as they both have a tailored frequency response that many find to be natural, basically they shelve down the presence area to create a more laid back and relaxed perspective on the recording. ATC's don't of course, and they are more direct and dynamic. Both approaches are valid, it comes down to personal preference at the end of the day I guess.

I tend to agree Ian, true neutrality thrives on more neutrality. Maximise the strengths rather than hide the weaknesses. Of course your ATC's are really domestic/studio hybrids and at the top of the tree as far as suppliers like HHB are concerned. Believe it or not, but my speakers are studio monitors too, even finished in studio black. However, the difference between these and the likes of Mackie, HHB, Circle and Genelec is not subtle, with Merlin having put some thought into the products music playing capabilites.

James, just one scenario. What if the recording was mastered in a suite using Harbeth Monitor 30's? I agree you cannot improve on the recording (in fact, regardless of your system, you cannot get within a country mile of it's quality!), but you can choose to listen to it as the mastering engineer intended.

Of course, given the differing setups in various suites around the world, and given the use of numerous monitors that are less than prefectly neutral (B&W, JBL, Harbeth etc.), this goal becomes impossible, so you might as well buy a speaker you enjoy listening to music on regardless. That's where the domestic builder's art comes in IMO. Ruler flat frequency response do not sound at all nice, and I should know!!!!

 

Merlin, we're mostly in agreement, except this bit:

AFAIK the "domestic" 10s are identical to the pro 10s (even down to the external finish). The only difference is that the pro model has parametric controls. The amps and drive units are identical.

You're entirely right about Harbeth/Spendor, however. Good point.

-- Ian

 

Yes, I'm quite sure the extra Mana will have had a very positive effect. Don't get me wrong, btw, I think the ATC midband unit is the best there is - better than Spendor's, and that's pretty good, it's just that I think the ATC amp controlling it (in your case) doesn't make the most of its ability, sonically, as effectively as it controls its efficiency, electrically - if you get my meaning.

To give you an analogy: if ATC amps were portrayed as clothes, they'd be a smart suit with a shirt and tie; all stiff and starchy, not wanting to put a foot wrong; whereas Stealths (for example) would be the party animals wearing a t-shirt and jeans; all bad manners and full of joie de vivre.

Anyway, nothing is perfect, and you have a much better system than most.

Marco.

 

Ian,

What I meant was that as I am led to understand it, the 10 was designed with more than an eye on the domestic market as well, and therefore some consideration was given, as is always the case at ATC. I was not inferring there were two seperate models.

I have to say that I agree with Marco on this one, personally prefering the BBC voicing of the large Spendors and Harbeths. But that's nothing more than personal preference, to say one is better than the other would be very naive.

 

Ah. All is clear. Actually, I like Harbeths as well.

Please don't. Hi-fi analogies are always useless (there are no exceptions to this rule).

-- Ian

 

Could you please provide details of where you obtained this information? If it's true, I certainly don't find the effect unnatural. However, I'd be surprised if Spendor or Harbeth, considering their heritage in the professional sector, introduced something into the design of their speakers that was thought to impair accuracy or faithful reproduction of the original recording.

Marco.

 

You may well be right about the ATC amps, Marco I really honestly don't know. I think JW was having a bit of a joke about the ATC amps in the other place, although it was difficult to be sure.

I also take Paul Ranson's point that improvements might come from changing the environment which the crossover inhabits as well, maybe.

But....big but....I'm really totally past caring about trying to improve the system I have: it's one of the best I've ever heard, enormous fun and plenty good enough for me. It continues to astonish me with every record/CD I play and it keeps me up till all hours 'bum nailed to the sofa'. In other words it'll do.

Now saving for an M5 perhaps.

 

I don't think it really matters what it's mastered on. Once it's done, it's done and there you have it. One thing Paul pointed out when he came up this way was that every record sounds different from the last, which I was sort-of aware of, but hadn't really thought about before, and these differences come down to the recording/mastering techniques which are, I guess, unique for every recording.

I've never taken a record off because of a poor recording sound, the music always shines through and if it's good music, it's good music.

I think you can get extremely close to the quality of the recording these days. If you find yourself in Scotland you could pop in if you like.

 

Ooh, whereabouts in Scotland are you? And what model of speakers are you using?

Dunc