Good secondhand speakers for £6-700... suggestions?

Nowt wrong with our Roy as they say up North.

In fact I have found his writing to be invaluable in my quest to reduce the levels of Mogadon and Valium that I had been consuming.

Anyone who is able to think so much whilst apparently listening to music and enjoying the experience is quite possibly missing the point.

 

Wow, much activity in my absence.... As to "hifi" vs. "music" ... umm, it's complicated.

Now, back to the SCM-12s...

I've had them for about 24 hours now, and have given them a good thrashing with all sorts of music, and tried all sorts of positions, and think I've got a fairly good bead on their sound. In short, I'd say they sound fantastic, but not perfect (and specifically, not as good as the Active 10s in some areas).

They have good weight to the sound and the bass is fuller and more enjoyable IMO, but they retain the Active 10s small soundstage (vertically speaking). As with the 10s, the 12s' soundstage grows consistently with volume level, and it's definitely easier to get a satisfyingly large and believable soundstage with the 12s, which is good. But at lower listening levels the soundstage is definitely smaller than life. I'm assuming this is a feature of high quality, low distortion, low colouration loudspeakers with few [relatively] small drivers in a smallish box, so can't really be avoided without colouring the sound. (Would you say this is true?)

The midrange is absolutely gorgeous - even better than the 10s, I'd say, in that the 12s seem more dynamic and "free" - less closed in. BUT, they also sound slightly warmer than neutral, which is pleasant but I think it may get tiring with time. It may just be the power amp (Classé CA-100), but I've heard them in store and they had the same warm sound (that was with an EAR preamp and Pass Aleph 3 power).

It's worth mentioning that they don't sound the slightest bit lean or bright driven by the Classé, unlike the JM Lab Electras (which sounded much fuller with an Arcam Alpha 10P, and are almost unlistenably bright with the Classé). Amusingly, but not surprisingly, the Classé gets a lot hotter driving the ATCs than the JM Labs.

Now, I'm a bit confused by the grilles. In the What Hifi's [glowing] reviews of the SCM-12, they state that the speakers were tuned with the grilles in place. In my experience, this knocks off a serious chunk of treble output and "shuts in" the sound quite a lot - they almost always sound a lot better with the grilles off IMO. There was also a point when the woofers were actually hitting against the grilles (I was playing the acoustic bass track from the Chesky Ultimate Demonstration Disc, and it must've been pretty loud... ) The treble can get ever so slightly strident with the volume waaay up, so maybe that's why WHF said to keep the grilles on? There's no mention of the grilles in the ATC manual. Maybe I'll give 'em a ring tomorrow and ask?

One problem with the 12s is that the boxes aren't nearly as rock-solid as the Active 10s'. It sounds like they're resonating in places when I have the volume cranked. The Active 10s have extremely strong cabinets, so I'm not really accustomed to this "box colouration" phenomenon that I hear so much about (the JM Labs do it too ).

I'm not sure I've settled on the best position for them yet, but they do seem to lose out slightly in treble "refinement" and "air" (I hate both of those almost as much as you do, but I can't think of a better way to describe it...), and the soundstage seems flatter and more 2D than with the JM Labs (and some of the speakers I heard at the Hifi Show, like the Meadowlarks, Neats, and Totems). The Active 10s were similar in that regard. The JM Labs really do have fantastic tweeters, though.

The 12s also don't sound quite as cohesive, or well integrated, frequency-wise, as the 10s (not surprising). It also sounds like the amp isn't giving them as much juice as they really want (despite it being a bit of a baby muscle amp). Certainly, seeing how good the bass was on the Active 20s I heard, the 12s don't really come close, despite using (I believe?) identical bass drivers. They DON'T, however, have any of the elusive upper midrange "sheen" that put me off the 10s in the first place.

So, all in all, I'm confused. I don't know what to do. I know I would enjoy the 12s if I were to buy them. And I don't think I could go back to the weak midrange of the JM Labs after living with the 12s these past two days. But the 12s do certain things WORSE than the 10s, which would be a bit depressing, especially seeing as I'd be buying the 12s new at full price (well, in this case, I'd be trading in my THREE Active 10s for a new pair of SCM-12s, but the end result is about the same).

I think I'm going to need an audition of the Active 20s. I heard them the one time, but only with a few pieces of music, so I want a proper dem. I desperately want them to not have the Dreaded Sheen. If they don't, I'll do my best to scrape up the cash and get m'self a pair (and not think about upgrading speakers again for a GOOD long time). Maybe the dealer would take my 3 Active 10s, plus the Classé power amp (bought for £600 secondhand), plus my Concept 4 sub in exchange for a new pair of 20s..............

If they DO have the sheen, then I'll be quite lost. Sensibly, in that case I should take the JM Labs (give back the SCM-12s) and sell them on, and try something else (Dynaudios most likely). That way I wouldn't lose lots of money like I would if I ended up wanting to sell on teh 12s..... But it could be a LONG while before I got my hands on a pair of speakers I really like... sigh...

Anyway, gotta run - Matrix Revolutions beckons!

Dunc

 

I think that Hi-Fi+ is a great magazine - "audiophile pornography" as I read somewhere. Rather like reading about Astons, Bentleys and Ferraris in a glossy car magazine. The Seventh Veil set up was due to be reviewed for the issue coming out on Dec 15th but, as that's the issue that will be at the CES show in the States, Roy decided to load up that issue with US stuff to increase US sales. The Seventh Veil review is put off until the next issue. It's a bit of a bummer for me but I'd say that Roy was a pretty shrewd cookie.

I asked Roy about a certain valve amplifier and whether it will be reviewed in the magazine. He said that they had listened to it but felt that it wasn't good enough for a review. So although it's rare to find a bad review in HiFi+, there's a lot of kit that doesn't make the grade.

Also, the magazine is laid out beautifully so, with any luck and if we please the mighty Messenger, I could end up with a nice glossy leaflet for the speakers.

 

jeez...you should try reading some martin colon(colloms) worse than a mf amp for putting you to sleep

 

I'd say don't do anything yet, apart from listen to more speakers, use more than one dealer if needs be.

Something else that strikes me is you're using a power amp that you're relatively unfamiliar with to dem speakers that are new to you. Maybe you should buy either a cheap known-good resellable power amp or cheap known-good resellable pair of speakers as a stopgap measure to help you dem the other component, and start from that. At least that way you're auditioning with a system that's largely familiar to you.

-- Ian

 

Quote:

Now, I'm a bit confused by the grilles. In the What Hifi's [glowing] reviews of the SCM-12, they state that the speakers were tuned with the grilles in place. In my experience, this knocks off a serious chunk of treble output and "shuts in" the sound quite a lot - they almost always sound a lot better with the grilles off IMO. There was also a point when the woofers were actually hitting against the grilles (I was playing the acoustic bass track from the Chesky Ultimate Demonstration Disc, and it must've been pretty loud... ) The treble can get ever so slightly strident with the volume waaay up, so maybe that's why WHF said to keep the grilles on? There's no mention of the grilles in the ATC manual. Maybe I'll give 'em a ring tomorrow and ask?


My SCM7's which have the same grilles's as the 12's,sound alot better with them off.
Infact,the difference is so great,I think I would buy something else if I had to listen with the things on..
I too have hit the grilles wth the drivers..........they can really shift some air........

Paul.

 

I was playing the acoustic bass track from the Chesky Ultimate Demonstration Disc, and it ...

.

 

Yeah, I hear ya re: other dealers, but the problem is, I've kinda already agreed to trade in the Active 10s towards something of his. The shop (Retro Reproductions here in Edinburgh) isn't a "regular" dealer - he does a lot of kit swapping and such, mostly specialising in interesting and/or classic kit (there's a lot of cool stuff lining the walls of the shop). So he'd probably be happy for me to hang on to the JM Labs until he got in something new for me to try, and then I'd just do a straight swap. Which is pretty handy.

Alternatively, I could just sell the JM Labs and do my own swapping by buying secondhand privately. This should give me broader options, but is much more hassle and is likely to take more time. It would be very sweet if a pair of SCM-12s would come up for sale around the £600 mark, though... that would solve my problem.

I know, I know, but I saw it as an unfortunate compromise... Your method would be the most effective, but also the most time-consuming and annoying IMO ( ). I was really, really hoping to get away with finding a decent, high-quality amp that doesn't have too much of an impact on sound, and just stick with it. Maybe once I'd settled on a pair of speakers I could spend time finding the perfect amp for it.

Sadly, this looks to be a somewhat naive hope.. It was really quite startling hearing the difference between the Classé and the Arcam - I thought the difference would be subtle, but it wasn't at all. And not entirely to the Classé's favour... Though seeing how warm and full the Arcam was with the JM Labs, I shudder to think how it would sound with the ATCs!

The thing is, seeing as I've had actives for the past 2+ years, I really have very little experience of power amps. So I may as well just stick with the Classé now, seeing as I've had a bit of experience with it now...

Anyway, I'll listen to the Active 20s. Maybe I'll fall in love with them and nothing else will suffice. If not, I suppose I'll just cross that bridge when I come to it, but I suspect it'll involve keeping the JM Labs, at least for now.

Sigh, who knew this hifi business could be so tricky.

Dunc

 

Did you listen to the Totem Model One's at the show Dunc? Might be up your alley (though I admit there's a wee bit of emphasis in the mid band).

 

Gambit, I didn't hear the Model 1s, but I had a pretty good long listen to the Sttafs. They have a very involving sound that's quite enjoyable, but didn't strike me as being particularly accurate or neutral. I'm a sucker for accuracy - I like my hifi to sound like the real thing, rather than an interpretation of it. And the Totems definitely sounded like an interpretation. A rather enjoyable interpretation, but not one that I think could ever really convince me that there were real performers in the room with me. It may, of course, have been down to the setup and partnering equipment (a decent-looking all Rega system) though, so who knows. I may have to get a demo at Loud & Clear, along with the Leemas...

Dunc

 

I'd say try the one's, I think they maybe more up your alley but still a little bit coloured. You know I like them but then I'm not so much of a stickler for accuracy. I likes what I likes.

 

Goodness me, when will it ever end?

Oi! I thought we had stopped all that crap? I certainly had. Please give it a rest.

Marco.

 

Okay, I rang ATC about the grilles on the SCM-12s. According to the techie I spoke to, the grilles are important in eliminating diffraction effects from the front baffle, and that the speakers measure perfectly with them on, and were designed with the grilles in place. According to him you "have to" listen with the grilles on. So there.

I guess I'll have to play with them a bit more (got them for one more day!) There's definitely a smoothness and "airiness" with the grilles on that seems to be missing with them off, but I still think they benefit from the extra treble sparkle of the sans-grilles configuration. Oh well.

Oh, and regarding the woofer hitting against the grille - he said it was more likely that the air-shifting abilities of the woofer were causing the grilles to vibrate audibly. Seems plausible to me - will have to try and see if I can make 'em do it again. The ATC guru didn't offer any advice on how to fix it, though. Guess it's just one of those things you're supposed to put up with.

Dunc

 

he said it was more likely that the air-shifting abilities of the woofer were causing the grilles to vibrate audibly.


Hi Dunc

I would have thought a company famous for studio monitor accuracy like ATC would have been able to engineer out a problem like that.

Not too impressive, if thats the case IMO.

Mind you, having speaker cones too close to the grille so they bang off each other doesnt sound like good design either (!)

I dont think we can win with that one.
Nevermind

 

They do that to stop them sounding like Mackies

 

Quote:

he said it was more likely that the air-shifting abilities of the woofer were causing the grilles to vibrate audibly.

So much for the grilles being part of the design.
They are only around 6mm thick,and the roll surround sits flush to the steel baffle,so if the cone moves any more than this,it will hit the fabric...........not that it matter's to me as I don't use them

Paul.

 

Couldn't agree more. The whole story sounds rather 'dodgy' to me. I don't use my grilles on the disco towers, neither.

 

James,

On the subject of ATC's, have you ever considered or heard the 150's? I'm just wondering because I like the look of the 15" bass unit.

On another note, as WM has said that your system doesn't do bass, and I believe he has complained that mine too is lacking in the thwack department, do you think the 150 might give the sort of bass WM is talking about or would you more likely get that from a pair of 6x9's

 

No the 100s are absolutely fine, they've got bass by the bucketload if required. The reason they can appear a bit light is that if there's no bass on the disc, they don't add their own.

WM has a room resonance issue, which I fortunately don't have either AFAICT.

I can't see myself changing any of my gear in the forseeable future, the long journey is at an end, and I'm saving up for a very naughty car.

 

James, my you are a card best buy a decent car, not one of the awful Bmw's mate
I'm also inclined to agree with MR theroy on the ATC's they need far better amps to drive em, might even end up with bass then, what a bouns a! a good car and some bass wow, a double whammy, fantastic Xmas present for you
You should also treat yourself a listen, to merlins rig too, well worth the trip for you James, then you would go some way to half understanding, how a decent system sounds, Merlins may not have the total thwack I seek, but it's one of the best examples of how to do a cracking system with 'proper controlled and exicuted' bass, you could learn an awful lot form a visit james, plus met Mike too, give you a chance to leave your 'cave' and seek some new stimuli. T.