Graduates how did you get your job?

The time is coming where I need to be thinking about jobs but I am slightly worried. My education history is anything but conventional. I have looked a few graduate training schemes but these companies are adverting for graduates all over the country and are probably only looking for the very best, i.e 1st class degree, 5 A grade A levels etc.

Do you think it may be better to apply for normal jobs when I leave which will require a degree such as an ASP.NET programmmer? I would rather get a lower paid job than apply for loads of £20k+ schemes that I have no chance of getting into. I am not sure I will do to well in psychometric testd either which a lot of the bigger firms use.

 

There's a shortage of decent programmers, but loads of applicants. I'd recommend trying to start out in a lower-paid job with a small company, that way you're likely to get some first-hand experience of dealing with clients directly, an ability to do this is pretty rare in IT.

-- Ian

 

If there's a scheme that particularly takes your fancy and it's not clear from the advertisment then there's no harm in asking what sort of qualification they're looking for. A lot of employers are going to be more interested in what they judge you can do in the 'real world' based on interviews etc. rather than purely academic qualifications. I think you'd be hard pushed to find many requiring as much as a first class degree and 5A's at A level, the best are normally happy with a 2:1 plus a decent set of A levels (which post degree count for very little really) I'd have thought.

Good luck job hunting.

 

As an IT director, I'd reinforce the importance of that - in choosing a career within IT you need to avoid developing a technical skill that rapidly becomes commoditised and thus outsourceable (i.e. anything that can be done in a back room here can be done in a back room in Bangalore for far less ..). Becoming strongly client-facing is the best way of avoiding this.

 

Back in my day qualifications like that really meant something...
Anyway, how I got my first job:
Barefaced lying
Barefaced cheek
"Insider Knowledge"
Abject grovelling to anyone deemed remotely worth grovelling to
A moleskin jacket from a well-known at the time gay mens' clothing emporium (of the non "specialised" variety) on Lower Dean Street The only other jacket I possesed at the time being of the Donkey variety.

 

I did an HND (computing for business) sandwich course, but Iwas lucky that my placement was in germany, working for IBM global services (IT outsourcing for continental and contitech), so after my course I walked into a job with a small firm (this was in 1998), then spent just over a year there, then got a job with another global IT outsourcing company and I've been there for over 5 years now....

I would say that experience is the key...

 

A view from the other side of the fence.

Two notes from the FT Note 1 , Note 2 cover this subject from the employers point of view and both notes can be summarised by this short quote;

.

From an employers point of view this can be a worry, it is taken for granted that the graduate has the required technical skills as seen by grades obtained in exams and talks with tutors or senior tutors but can they function in the real world?

A few years ago I and my partners hired mainly IT graduates after visiting / talking with the senior tutors for IT at four universities in the South of England. Of the IT centred gradates two played cricket with local Sunday teams, all but one worked at places like PC World dealing with irate and somtimes thick customers. Of the non-IT graduates they all showed a well developed business mind packed full of ideas that marked them out from the crowd and they had a life outside of the unversity.

As has been said before being a grand master of a very narrow field of work is not what is needed, a degree plus good manners, looking neat and tidy and then displaying the ability to listen before venturing an opinion may well help you get the job.

I tend to look for a rough diamond that can be polished and transformed in to someone of great value but sometime I do waste a bit of time trying to polish the odd turd or two. I want a polymath who can get on with everyday people after all they are the people who will be paying their wages.


So do you feel lucky?

 

That is kind of my problem lack of real world experience. I have plenty of real world programming experience but no real experience of working. I have done a total of ten days working for an I.T ocmpany producing websites for the University of Manchester I should be able to get a good reference from this.

However I don't feel it is enough, I will certainly be applying for the lower end I.T jobs at first to try and get this experience. A few people have said I should do a masters but I don't think that will help at this time as I need experience. Having loads of qualifications is pointless if you can't deal with clients etc.

 

IME you need to be prepared for a few years of learning - not something you may relish after doing your degree. Look for something client based (maybe IT related marketing or sales?) and be prepared to soak all the experiences you can. Trust me, after you start a job nobody gives a hoot what degree you have, and psychometrics testing isnt really that important (on the whole). If the interviewer likes what he/she sees in the first 4mins youre in.

Good luck

PS - Dont tell anyone youre hobby is hi-fi Seriously, being geek chic wont help you if your expected to get a client facing role - unless youre planning on being a Unix/pascal/cobol black arts back room programmer!

 

I remember my first interviews after university.

Nobody wanted to give me a chance because I didnt have any work experience and it took my a year to find a job I felt happy with. Things werent helped by the economy being in deep recession.

Id reccomend getting some interview practice at your University or Careers advice centre.

If you feel that interpersonal client facing skills are a weak point, then look at your experience and try and find examples of near fits that you can talk about at interview.

Finally, I found that doing voluntary work for a charity instead of claiming dole made a good impression and glossed over the fact that I wasnt currently working.

Good luck with the job hunting, keep your chin up. Its all about confidence and saying the right thing, rather than your CV IMHO.

Get a nice suit !



Chris

 

Ideally I would like a back room job but in the real world not many of them probably exist. I have been running a society for students living at home but it has been really hard to get off the ground and its taking up to much of my time so I don't think I can run it any longer.

I suppose running things like my music site might help me because it shows I have external interests but its not too geeky like HIFI. Several years ago my CV read on the lines off:

I wrote my first computer program when I was 8, I have always loved computers, I enjoy building computers, I have built up an audiophile HIFI system...

Even I can admit it sounded very geeky now. My CV now is more like I am a team player and I enjoy clubbing and discovering new music etc...

The only reference to computers is in my skills section.

Also in my CV should I mention programming languages I am not that brillaint at? For example Java I can produce Applets but that is about it, should I just list the langauges and platforms I am most comfortable in or should I list stuff like Java even though I am not good enough at it in a commerical envrinment? I suppose I need to speak to my careers department about this.

I don't mind learning when I get a new job in fact I am expecting to have to. I have seen many jobs I think I can do so I guess the ulimtate question is how many people wil apply to these jobs.

I got my last job quite easily even though 12 people had an interview I was the only one who had any real knowledge of web development, this was only for an £8 an hour job though.

The biggest problem I have is I am a geek I openly admit that, I wear Smiths T-shirts in night clubs, wear hearing aids and spend a lot of time in vinyl record shops. I am also quite shy in some respects but not in a team envronment, I can't do sales jobs though but discussing technical requirments with a client shouldn't scare me

If all fails then I work in tesco for a few years save some money and start my own business in multimedia development or somthing.

 

Thanks I did some charity work last year, I was supposed to design a website for this community centre for kids who got expelled from school, they ran out of funding though so I only had a few meetings with them.

I am going to the careers office tomorrow just to see if I can arange some interviews etc.

 

Id reccomend tailoring your CV for each job you apply for.

If you think the person reading it will be interested in a little limited Java experience I'd put it in.. and the same all the way down.

Whenever I apply for a job I pretty much re-write my CV specifically to emphasize what they say they are looking for in their job advert.

Dont be worried about yourself. Just wear a suit and be full of confidence - you can do it

 

Thanks. I remember when I got the job I had a few months ago the application said must have good CSS skills I had hardly touched on them before that. I spent a weekend learning CSS but put CSS in my CV beforehand.

I guess for example if the job was for a web development person for a HIFI company them mentioning HIFI would be a good thing for general stuff it wouldn't. I once applied for a job where they asked me if I was interested in glass, I think that must have been a piss take.

 

You could have said '' I am when its got beer in it'' hehe

 

Ask yourself a question: At this stage in my career do I really want to apply for a job I know I can do?

If companies want a good programmer they will hire one with a track record.
If companies want someone they can develop and nurture they will hire the likes of you. Dont be afraid of going for something a little different. The right attitude and comitment will get you through. They want to know you can learn and work with others. Approach the interviews with this angle supported by your current tech knowledge level and you shouldt go wrong.

disclaimer: If this advice hinders your career progression - you aint seen me, roit.

 

Couple of things to note here...

I have a 100% reliable inside source that of 2002 graduates, Computer Science had the highest level of unemployment 6 months after graduation (although worth noting that working in macdonalds counts as employment... it's not referring to relevant (as in to the degree taken or vice versa) employment) of ALL degrees. Electronic engineering was second worse (iirc the figures were 14% and 12% respectively but could be wrong).

The simple tactic that I used once I obtained my degree was to apply for everything. At that time I was a little burned out on engineering and looked into getting a job as a magazine writer. Got an interview with Future Publishing to write for one of their PC magazines and was offered the job, but the pay was rubbish (how do you live in Bath on £12k?). By luck more than judgement I then landed a job with a struggling hifi company. It wasn't the dream job it might seem; the company continued to struggle and I was laid off after 6 months.

But then the technical director of that company pointed out a job advert in the British Audio Journal. I applied, got the job, more money and I'm very happy with the job. It's more serious engineering work than my previous one, I'm learning a huge amount and picking up skills.

That waffling over.... Don't worry too much about the classification of your degree. I got a 2:2, but I'm doing pretty well now. A company is more likely to be interested in a graduate with a 2:1 from a very good university than a 1st from some nether ex-polytechnic. However, I know people with 1sts from good universities who have great trouble with getting jobs and keeping them because they are so bookish and somewhat arrogant that they come across badly in interview.

Interview is key. CV gets your foot in the door. The interview is your wedge. When you get asked technical questions, do your best, but be honest. Admit when you don't know something and make clear that you're keen to learn about it, rather than trying to pass off BS.

And my experience of job agencies is that they tend to kick in and start to find things for you about 6 months after you've got a job.

 

This is a classic statement purely because it is so true. However, the problem is most company uses them nowadays. So you should try to use them even more as long as with proper knowledge of how they work and their limitation.

 

A point worth noting - the vast majority of graduates aren't employed on graduate schemes, but get "ordinary" jobs.

I graduated in 2001 (with a 2:1) and was unemployed for 18 months (I had interviews almost every week in that time - all over the country). To get my first job I had to move to the other end of the country. My experience of agencies is very different - I signed up to an agency that specifically dealt with the area I was interested in (finance). Within 2 weeks this lead to a long term contracting position which I subsequently turned into a permanent position and my current career path.

 

By accident, as is usual in the patent profession. I went to Oz in 1970 on an assisted passage (£10) with a brand-new honours degree in chemistry, there being virtually no jobs in Northern Ireland for such a qualification. The patent guy at the R&D labs of Dulux, Oz's biggest paint manufacturer, desperately needed assistance to handle an increasingly large load of work. I also had an offer to work in a synthetic rubber company as a chemist, but it was at Altona in the western suburbs of Melbourne, which even in my then poor knowledge of Melbourne geography, looked like the back of beyond. So I took the patent job. It was the best thing I ever did, giving me a profession that allows me to work with very clever inventive people and contribute usefully to their work. It even provided an inventor who was to become Mrs. Tones!