Hearing Marco's system again.

Well, the fact you use ATC power amps and I use 135s will make quite a difference to the level of 'Naim character' heard in both our systems. As an aside, there were aspects of the sound I preferred when you had 135s and your ES22s, compared to your current ATC based set-up.

That's one of the advantages of having a large room. The same system in a smaller room would of course sound 'very loud' indeed. In my view, it's a question of balance: get it wrong in a small room, and the effect can be horrendous - it is harder to get a good result, but not impossible.

However, get it wrong in a large room, and you can end up with a sound lacking in drive and impact where the music is 'swallowed up' in the expanse of the room's greater dimensions. In my opinion, the only way to experience (in a large room) the kind of drive, impact and loudness I get with my system, is to use really big speakers and huge power amps that will succeed to 'drive' the room in a similar way. To my ears, you don't quite get that effect in your room, but it's immaterial because that's not what you're looking for.

Protecting your hearing is very important. I always worry about this when I go to live gigs and try to stay quite far away from the speakers. The last Kosheen concert I went to was painfully loud, and it took a few days for the ringing to stop! However, it's all about moderation, and I don't do that kind of thing every day.

I also tend to only listen really loud when I have friends round - I just can't resist it! But when I'm alone, lying on the sofa reading a book, or whatever, the volume level is usually around the 8 'o clock mark. However, quite often, I'm forced to put the book down and sit up because the music sounds so bloody good! The Mana has been largely responsible for that effect. Phase 7 and above really is something special.

Marco.

 

Marco, you may find moderation wont help with hearing damage

Its an accumulative effect, when i was training for chainsaw use they explained to us then. Some saws are exceptionaly loud and exposure without protection for as little as 30 seconds can have permanent damageing effect. But that doesnt have to be 30 seconds in one go, 10 seconds today 5 seconds next week 6 seconds in 2 months time, you get the idea. Im not sure if that is a medical fact, but its advice i always remember.

So if you get a smaller room, buy some ear muffs

 

Marco, you know that chest-thump you get? That's the room.

You've changed a lot of kit since you left Glasgow.

I don't regret selling the NAP 135s for one moment, they are the reason your system sounds 'loud'. Nasty shouty things, you can do a lot better.

 

Penance, you have a point, but in all honesty I don't listen that loud very often, and certainly not for extended periods.

The ears muffs sound like a good idea, though. I might invest in a pink fluffy pair, or black ones with white polka dots, depending on my mood.

Marco.

 

replaceable muff covers

 

James, it is what it is, and I happen to like the effect. That's all that matters. There is no 'boom', however, despite what you might think. You'll just have to take my word on that I'm afraid.

Let's not get involved in a pointless debate about this shall we?

Yes, indeed. But I'm still able to differentiate between the effect of the change of kit, and the effect of the different room.

Overall, I prefer your ATC combo, but there was a certain magic/synergy - call it what you like - with the 135s/ES22s that the ATC combo doesn't have. Naim and Epos have always been a classic partnership.

Believe me, the 135s are no longer 'shouty' since I put them on their own separate mains spurs; as a result, they're entirely different beasts. Yes, there are better power amps out there, but they do what I want them to do, and form an excellent partnership with the Spendors. In my opinion, it would be difficult to do better (in terms of what I'm looking for) without spending a lot more.

Marco.

 

Fig leaf!

 

The room certainly helps as it is small enough not to need a lot of driving - and all systems drive their rooms, that's why they would sound lifeless if set up in a field.

The chest thump is not boom, it is the start of the bass note or whack on the ol' kick drum or other big drum.

Boom is overhang, i.e: when the bass note outstays its welcome.

Bass notes on Marco's system tend to f*ck off at the right moment.

 

IME, room gain can be boomy or not. With my speakers next to the wall, they sound boomy - big and bloated and all over the place. If I pull them into the room, the boom goes away, but the room's two primary bass modes, at 78Hz and 41Hz (I believe), are still there. These add [an often unpleasant amount of] volume, but do not add bloat or boom.

Dunc

 

Yes the ATCs are very different in that they don't draw attention to themselves, except visually. They are better all round, particularly in terms of detail resolution and making sense of complex music. I really liked the old ES22s as well.

 

PS Marco - just read John Toon's thread in the green pasture. I reckon you should put your stereo in your living room, and move the TV upstairs. Just a thought.

 

Spot on Dunc, room gain doesn't have to slow the bass too much if the bass doesn't go too low.

But gain is gain, and this chest thump, whilst no doubt entertaining on certain otherwise moribund recordings, is nevertheless an inaccuracy which will show itself on more cultured material.

 

Bub

You said

"PS Marco - just read John Toon's thread in the green pasture. I reckon you should put your stereo in your living room, and move the TV upstairs. Just a thought."

TV's in small rooms are awful, he would have to resort to some little 14" jobbie.

How about a room extension or even a new house.

Regards

Mick

 

Mick, how about some 'newer paisley patterns' on the wall, and maybe a pair of Purdeys, instead of those bluderbusses you got nailed up there at the moment, or better still a monogrammed crystal engraved case to mount your fountain pens in, failing that a stuffed Rhino Wm

 

Or perhaps a nice pair of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown toby jugs/teapots

 

Bunch of peasants

Tone

Just what is wrong with my wallpaper, every bloody audiophile on every bloody forum has criticised it. It is a classic William Morris design from the arts and crafts movements. It is the sort of paper one would expect to see hung up in the houses of the gentlefolk of Cheltenham.

Those old blunderbuses are

a) a Griffin of Bond St flintlock which is considered to be the best maker, second only to Joseph Manton.

b) a 12 hammer gun made in Swindon and previously used by the grandson of Wyatt Earp.

c) a mint 12 bore percussion shotgun made by Banks of Chippenham.

Next time I see you, one of them will be loaded and pointed at your bum. Then you will know the meaning of deep bass.


Robbo

If you know of any Gordon Brown and Tony Blair teapots, let me know, Mrs Mick will snap them up.

Regards

Mick

 

Mick, and there was I led to believe you were a man of breeding sadly the illusion has been shattered forever.
Have you though of letting out you room to film studios, that are doing 70's period drama's, you could make a mint & gather the funds neccessary to accquire a 552 even sooner and have your stately 3 bed semi captured on celluiod as well, I feel a definate win, win there Mick
Just imagine Paul Darwins face when you turn up with a bag of reddies earlier than anticipated

 

Tone

Quote..."Have you though of letting out you room to film studios, that are doing 70's period drama's,"

Jolly good idea, I shall appoint an agent tomorrow.

I owe you a whisky old chap.

Regards

Mick

 

Hi Steven,

I visit the zerogain forum from time to time but rarely join in as I am trying to reduce forum involvement as I have been active for nearly 10 years now. However, the odd comment needs correcting.

"The chest thump is not boom, it is the start of the bass note or whack on the ol' kick drum or other big drum."

Any resonant mode in a room will add energy to the sound in a fairly tight frequency band. This gives an uneven frequency response in the room and some phase issues. In a small to medium sized room this is quite commonly in the frequency region that you feel as a thump in the chest. If you have powerfull amps and a low distortion system then you can keep on winding up the system volume. This is very likely to result in chest thump if there is a frum etc in the right frequency range.

Whether you call this boom or some other term doesn't matter it is a very real and significant factor in how a room sounds.

If you like this chest thump, caused by room modes, then that is fine.

If you have a resonance here then you are likely to have a bit of overhang. This will vary greatly based upon your room modes, whether you have a suspended floor and a boom box beneath etc.

"Boom is overhang, i.e: when the bass note outstays its welcome."

This happens in any room to a greater or lesser extent. If you have a similar room to Marco's then you are likely to have this as well.

It can be reduced significantly through tuning the room. A friend of mine is an audio engineer and has done this for 20+ years for recording studios and homes. He measured the in room response in my house, compared this to predicted results using a theoretical approach and then tuned out the main room mode.

Ian

 

Ian/fox,

Marco's room may indeed act as a graphic equaliser that raises certain low frequencies above flat, and may even cause suckout at other frequencies producing a slightly coloured, pinched sound particularly in the midband.

But there's no boom in the bass; i.e: bass output may indeed be the issue given his room, and not excess bass duration /overhang.

That's what my ears tell me anyway, and my humble brain is just filling in the gaps.

That chest thump is rather fast actually. Don't the round earth geeks call it "slam" or something like that?