Heathow Hi-fi Show,

my views to the fact, stereo mic.

 

You'd think that because of this they might be more careful about what they say in public. What Nando described surely can be disasterous even for a well regarded name. These are the sales tactics of MF and it's the main reason that I won't touch their products now. Curiously Nando sells MF as well. :rds2:

 

I'm in agreement with what's been said here.

If you look back 15-20 years just how much has 'hi-fi' come on? The answer is very little and if you consider the perceived pinnacle of then and now then I think in general its actually taken a step back.

I didn't attend Heathrow but its sister event up north is held at Manchester Airport and I attend this. Looking at the line up its almost exactly the same exhibitors. Considering the most expensive and almost religiously self proclaimed state of the art systems on display, you would be forgiven for scratching your head at the six figure price tag being totally at odds with your ears. And the older and more jaded will quickly see that in marketing terms, old technology is being rebadged and revitalised for a new generation of enthusiast to buy in to.

The sound from most of these system is as dead as a fart. No life, no soul, no music. Yet the earth is being charged for them with a focus on technology as the key to new sonic realisations and since there's so many technical specs, patents and marketing buzzwords surrounding a product then that's half the battle won. The reality is that I think the modern hifi industry has lost sight of the true nature and sound of music and instead has created some artificial facsimile that willing diverges because it has become instilled in many and the industry itself that this is what hi-fi is.

I really place the blame with the press as much as the manufacturers when it comes down to this dumbing of music.

Keep your hi-fi thanks.

 

I couldn't agree more with that. Room after room, the words used to describe the sound are "tight", "nicely focussed" " fast" and other such irrelevances. When did you last go to a concert and comment on how nicely focussed and fast the sound was?

These are simply classic descriptive terms for over damped audio equipment - a symptom of which is to my ears, an almost total lack of realistic presence and life. An over damped system can be made to sound incredibly detailed and organised - in a wholly un natural manner. Systems need to be critically damped. Bass needs to breath naturally. It might not sound so high tech in a brief audition, but it will lead to longer term musical satisfaction as the enduring popularity of BBC monitors, Tannoys and valves demonstrates all too readily.

Unfortunately, the mainstream manufacturers are not interested in " long term musical satisfaction" as this suggests lower turnover and lower profits to the beancounters in charge of most of them these days. This is short sighted. Long term dissatisfaction with the whole concept of high end hifi will lead to non existant turnover - I wonder whether they will wise up before it's too late?

Some companies clearly are purely motivated by turnover, both of product and of customers. Musical Fatality is a damned good example of that model and I have to say, Naim in recent years has started showing signs of following suit. Fortunately there are still some small enthusastic manufacturers with old fashioned business principles. Sadly they rarely show up at places like Heathrow and if they do, they remain relatively low key.

I firmly believe that the capacity exists to get the youth excited again about the sound they can get from their latest generation media servers. It's just most of these manufacturers are deliberately trying to lead the public up the wrong path with the aim of increasing turnover. They should give the public more respect and cut their cloth to fit.

 

Oh dear. This has turned into the usual grumbling and griping session by the disillusioned.

I think there was quite a lot of innovation at the Show this year.

The Rountree speakers were new concept; ceramic-coned speakers are fairly new, and coming down (as well as up!) in price and certainly have their merits; horn speakers are having a welcome resurgence; the new hi-rez video formats are a big jump in quality - and those are pure new-technology-driven; there's enough new vinyl kit around to satisfy even the most die-hard addict; valves are great and hard to avoid these days; mains regeneration technology is becoming more real-world and better vfm too.

There's a wider choice of any technology these days than there ever used to be. A lot of it is well thought out, well made and good vfm.

Quit griping and enjoy it - its a Golden Age !!

 

Jerry, my "grumbling and griping" was a response to Nando's comment regarding the behaviour of his supplier. I feel that this just isn't cricket.

 

Well to be fair I think vinyl replay has progresses significantly largely after the advent of CD.

The consumers get the industry they deserve - most people buy kit for reasons largely other than sound quality so the selective pressure for improvement is very low.

 

With pointless results - I certainly didn't hear a loudspeaker I would take over any number of designs from the past quarter of a century.

And in my opinion are finding their way into amaemic sounding tinkly audiophool speakers that fail to convey real music.

I didn't see any evidence of that - and to be honest, they aren't any better than they were forty years ago unless you spend mega bucks.

Yep and that's why people spend money on video and not audio. Having said that, all the new formats provide IME is the ability to watch a larger image. The quality gains are totally lost on typical 40" screens where after ten minutes of a film you forget you are watching BR or HD. I'm not surprised at the slow take up.

And none of it has improved the listening experience. Prices go up as sales volumes go down. The public needs a new level of listening experience, and I fully expect that to come from someone like Sony, Microsoft or Apple - not from the sloath like fossils dusting off the cobwebs in Heathrow's dingey hotel rooms ;-)

 

^^ :sleep:

 

^^ your fundamental point (pls correct me if I'm wrong) is about new kit and technology "not improving the listening experience".

I disagree. You are welcome to your own point of view of course, but that's all it is, same as mine.

I think PS Audio's mains regenerators are both innovative and effective. I used to own a P300 - and am currently lusting for their new gen kit which doesn't have the same heat production and power limitations. The 300 made my hifi sound better IMO.

No, the Rountree speaker sound at the Show didn't appeal to me either - but it was innovative new technology (or at least a new application of existing techs) and it may well sound better under non-Show conditions. A lot of stuff does.

I've owned ceramic-coned speakers (Kharmas) and they did things well that other speakers don't. A genuine advance worthy of further attention & work IMO. They seem to be being teamed up with diamond tweeters and other hyper-expensive irrelevancies at the moment, but that may just be a short-term trend - I hope so. It does though show the potential of the ceramic drivers.

I guess another valid point in response to your comments is that some folks like "tight" etc etc sound. You don't. Nor do I. So what? A lot of folks do, and are willing to buy it. I think it's wrong to be so dismissive of these things and use them as an example of the death of the industry. Quite the opposite, they offer a genuine (& popular) alternative. Thankfully, we don't (currently) live in a Hifi Totalitarian state where one view dominates others and choice is heavily restricted (unlike the sad-old, bad-old days of the Naim/Linn hegemony in the UK).

And so what if Sony or Apple come up with a new way forward - the "specialist audio" (aka audiophile) industry has often specialised in improving mass market technology - many folks think that is what it does best. I'm sure it will do so again in the future in response to whatever the mass-market brands bring out.

Anyway, enough of my rambling ... I could go on (and on) .... I think the industry is doing OK - & it's always worth remembering that our passion for sound quality is, was and always will be a minority interest. Most people really are immune to its allure.

 

No, no - I wasn't havin' a go at you , Dev - but other posters here do seem to be wallowing in despair and rending their clothing!

 

Kharma's? YUCK!

These speakers are the epitome of bad sound. These are like noise generators with zero musical ability. Possibly the worst high end speakers in the world.

I read an opinion that perfectly sums these speakers up and whilst a little over the top, its certainly amusing and easy to relate to:

OK, let see where those Kharma woofer stand in term of Sound. The Thiel & Partner's ceramic drivers have high cone rigidity, that prevents any cone breakup, and it is…. one of their biggest problems. The drivers themselves still are not as bad if they used in a VERY limited MF bandwidth but as soon those ceramic drivers begin to touch lower MF (not to mention upperbass) then the typical ceramic atonal misery come to existence. The audio propaganda have convinced the gullible audio public that cone's rigidity and absent of any cone bending (breakup) is positive. Surely it is very simple to bring a piston example to the uninformed public and make them to believe that a diaphragm with gravestone rigidity might be “good for soundâ€Â. Nothing could be further from truth though! The ceramic upper bass drivers always do that typical “empty, fill the vacuum†type of sound. It is not just about “ringing†(it happenings at higher frequencies) but about being “high resolutioned tonally impotentâ€Â. THESES DRIVERS CREATE A “PRESSURE EVENT†BUT THEY DO NOT FILL THE EVENT WITH TONE and therefore when I listen them I always feel that very unpleasant “fill the vacuum†effect. The Thiel & Partner's case is the worst case because those foolish ceramic cones sit in very loose; practically uncontrolled, high resonance suspension and THOSE CERAMIC CONES SHAKE IN THE DRIVER LIKE A JELLO-CAKE DURING AN EARTHQUAKE. The ceramic drivers reproduce very generic, very identical “empty†tone at different pressure levels, and this empty tone at a giver pressure has a LOT of faulty non-existing “resolutionâ€Â. This hated by me artificial resolution, combined with RAISE OR PRESSURE WITHOUT RAISING OF TONE become unfortunately very addictive for many Kharma's users. Add to that the fact that ceramic driver can't handle more volume that 70dB in a room of 50 cu feet! Add also the fact that that those 7†ceramic drivers dive under 300Hz into severe extrusion related sonic distortion! Add also to the fact that these drivers are completely blind to any complex tonal nuanceations and ….you'll see very clear the image about the Kharma's Sound. Perhaps it's possible to make a ceramic driver to sound more or less acceptable, using it within a strict band-pass and without letting it to operate at lower midrange (where sound shades are produced by driver's breakup)... for instance, the way it made in the Edolons… However, letting this driver to run wider range and without any high-passing!!!? Give me a break!

I can assure you that I in 100% of all cases, I would completely blindly, will be able to say that Sound is coming form a ceramic driver. It's hyper-resolution combined with absolute missing of any tonal connectivity; it's hyper-transients combined with the very inimitable dynamic compression, it's hyper-speed combined with “distortion clipping†at 70dB are very unique identifiers of those Thiel & Partner's ceramic drivers. Why Kharma used them? Because thanks for the idiots-reviewers, Audio has a pre-brewed army of AUDIO-ZOMBIES WHO HAVE ALREADY PRE-SOLD TO THAT TYPE OF SOUND. It is very similar to the industry reviewers were glorifying for years a faulty concept of “fast and tight bassâ€Â. As the result the manufactures replied by furnishing public with EXACTLY THAT: the “fast and tight bassâ€Â. Nowadays in any showroom you will go you will hear that ugly signature of that “fast and tight bassâ€Â, the bass that has nothing in common with acoustic bass. That “fast and tight bass†bass BECOME A UNIVERSAL OBJECTIVE OF MANY FOOLISH AUDIOPHILES and that bass is THE ONLY BASS that you will be able to buy nowadays from the industry sponsored avenues. Today's audio industry juts does not produce any “other bassâ€Â…..So, I personally fell that the industry's glorification of the Kharma's ceramic upper bas and lower MF has the very same dangers marketing tendency as “fast and tight bass†had 10-20 years ago. I am afraid that in 10-20 years, if no on will make those writing idiots to shit up the industry WILL NOT OFFER ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE KHARMA-LIKE CERAMIC SONIC SURROGATE. Look what the industry is doing now with Magico sound – obviously I can see the tangency… Taking about the “filing the vacuumâ€Â…!!!!!!

 

Can only be Romy!

 

That's fine. I respect your opinion. Why not respect mine also?

We aren't all music fascists who insist that everyone must share our own tastes.

 

Who wrote that article Shin?

 

The English is too good for Romy!

 

Definitely Romy ;-) Thought I recognised the writing style...

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/GetPost.aspx?PostID=3184&Phrase=kharma

 

Off the top of my head, I remember seeing -

Revolver Replay turntable (new)
Scheu Black Diamond turntable (new to UK, in the Naim and Sounds4Enjoyment rooms)
Avid turntables (Naim room)
Transcriptors turntables (new)
Funk Firm (including the new 'Safire')
Origin Live
Michell
Townsend Rock 5
Vyger Timor in the Emille Labs room (new)
Redpoint Model B (in the AngelSound Audio room)
Acoustic Solid turntable with Cartridge Man arm (Hi Audio room)
Creek Wyndsor (new)

Are you sure you went to the right show?!

 

Well, it sure takes all sorts. Must confess that I found my old Kharma Ceramique 3 speakers quite excellent. Superbly musical.

The criticisms in the article seem to refer to quite a different product to my ears. No lets be honest - the article is totally ridiculous.

Funny ol' world, eh?