Heathow Hi-fi Show,

Nope - your implications are quite wrong - I'm in it for the music. (some folks consider me a little bit fanatical about it, in fact - apparently having 37 different recordings of Bruckner's 7th symphony is deemed a little odd by some people )

And yes, those 'sound reproduction' terms (neutrality, lack of grain & yes, soundstage) do matter to me. Vital aspects of the music IMO, without which reproduced music doesn't sound real or even plausible to me.

Unlike Dev, I am not tolerant of tonal colourations - hence my observations about Tannoys (sorry Dev! ). They just don't sound real to me!

I seem to miss your point about sound reproduction vs music - you need one to get the other from hifi equipment.

 

Jerry,

the point is that there are inumerable types of coluoration and distortion, all of which have some bearing on a speaker sounding so far from reality.

You choose to point to the nasal midrange coluoration of the waveguide and crossover on a Tannoy yet experience suggests that the ear is very tolerant of this after a while. Walk into a room and you will shout coloured. An hour later most will be enjoying the music. Some won't of course but that minor tonal colouration is in truth probably less of a departure from overall neutrality than will be introduced in the time domain by multiple crossovers in the presence region. Or indeed by the contribution of you listening room.

Indeed the listening room is in most cases, by far the largest distorter of the signal in your replay chain, and wide dispersion designs like the Karma leave you more at the room's mercy than a CD device like the large Tannoy.

But just as our brain filters out a room's smell after a brief exposure to it, so it does the colourations of the listening room - one reason that we all tend to think our own systems sound better than others at shows or at friends. It is because we become accustomed to our domestic colouration. And if you have enough exposure your ear/brain interface will do the same with Tannoys I can assure you.

There are any number of areas in which Tannoys perform more accurately than the speakers you describe - from their reduced room interaction to their reduced signal losses through more acceptable efficiency, and reduced phase errors due to their intelligent two way construction and DC nature.

All qualities are important to music reproduction but my own experience suggests that small inherent tonal abherrations are far less of an impediment than most. The ear/brain can allow for these - it struggles to make up for tone or dynamic content IME.

As for soundstage being a vital part of the music, well I feel sorry for you. Music is firstly an emotional experience only occasionally a cerebral one. Emotion knows nothing of soundstage. Emotion knows dynamics, tone, pitch and rythmn.

 

Good post, SM.

I guess we each have our own priorities as to what compromises we are willing or able to accept (and notwithstanding coop's advocacy of the kit he sells, all sound reproduction equipment is compromised - "nothing's perfect" seems one of the few inevitabilities in life) .

I just have a different set of priorities to you is all ... hence my concerned reaction to you slagging off ceramic drivers and Rountree speakers etc etc. Not so sure about the latter, but the former have a lot going for them whatever negative comments you manage to unearth about them.

It might also depend on what your musical tastes are - my own tastes aren't much affected by the bass requirements for well-reproduced rock music, for example. Horses for courses.

 

I pointed out that Rowntree are trying to reinvent the wheel and that overall, ceramic drive units are clearly not an advance as there are those who find them lacking.

So my point that music replay has not progressed enough and that a 30 year old system can hold it's own still stands. Re inventing the wheel. If all you do is swap one compromise for another , where's the progress?

 

That seems to miss the point to me - nothing is perfect, everything is a compromise (do you really want to disagree with that?!) - so a new set of compromises may get you nearer to your goal. And that is progress.

 

Great ideal that no one will disagree with but is that really what has happened with these Rountree's?

 

the ''problem'' in my eyes and in my opinion... is a ...again in my opinion... belief that the public want a narrow baffle, restricted bandwidth speaker with components costing £200 and a price tag of £6,000.

I genuinely saw NO loudspeakers with a woofer larger than 10" and a price tag of less than £6,000.

You'd think paper cones were made out of fairy dust...

 

In my personal view, no. But you've gone from my general point to a specific piece of kit.

To focus on a point where we may disagree (more fun that way ) - the ceramic drivers I enjoyed in my Kharmas have a set of compromises that suited me and my music choices - resulting in progress for me. If those same drivers didn't improve your personal set of preferences, fair enough - but that doesn't invalidate the approach. It just means you'd buy something else!

 

It seems a shame that the Marten and Isophon speakers I like so much use ceramic drivers that are unavailable in a 15" or 18" size.

In the full Marten ensemble I heard last year, the speaker had a seperate speaker next to it with (what looked like) a row of 10" ceramic drivers in it.

I spoke to the Marten designer who was there..

"why not use a 15? " I asked him.

"because they don't make the drive unit in a 15" he answered somewhat ruefully.

I admired his honesty and attempt to beat the odds by stacking a row of 10's, but isn't it sad that large drive units can be ignored by a manufacturer, with a view (I am guessing) that large drive units are somehow un-audiophile.

 

Very true. Take a look at the US market and you see more wide baffle designs holding 12 and 15" drivers, and at sane prices. I think the British market asks for these and so its given them, maybe in answer to the average lounge size too.

I myself prefer the look of a slim baffle when not listening to music so you can start doubling up with smaller drivers to make up ground. However if you've got the room and don't mind the looks then a 45cm baffle with a 15 is hard to argue with.

They're not very marketable and look bland though. Truth is its one of the best cone materials.

 

My argument is that the "goal" is the fabrication of the industry - perpetuated by the specialist press, and reliant of descriptive terms like "focussed", "tight" and "fast". What I'm complaining about is that these goals have little to do with music or the effective reproduction of it, and everything to do with offering a different superficially impressive sound, that long term is unrewarding and over damped. A desire to stand out in the dem room rather than to provide long term musical satisfaction. To appeal to the woman's aestetic considerations rather than the fundementals of good music replay. The evidence is there for all to see on Audiogon


If we want to explore the benefits of different design approaches, it might be a good idea to open up a new thread. Could be fun.

 

Do these rountree's use ceramic drivers? Anyone have any links to pics, specs, website? A google turn up just this discussion!

 

Those ceramic drivers are actually very brittle, I've seen one shatter before my eyes much to the amusement of the dealer, shards of driver made it past the grille too, I'm just guessing that 15" might not be do-able in that material!

Speakers were a German brand Theil (not the widely known Theil) with a large transformer based crossover.

 

Thankfully the Heathrow hi-fi show was only a short bus ride away for me.

On-topic.

 

Well said that man! I totally and utterly agree with every word you've written, and also all of your post 162.

In terms of absolute sound quality and equipment that's capable of evoking a respectable degree of musical communication/involvement, very little real progress has been made.

Apart from the points you made, hi-fi is now all about looks and convenience rather than absolute sound quality. At least that's what many mainstream manufacturers seem to be striving for.
But sadly I guess that's what 'Joe Bloggs' wants.

It's now up to the small, specialist, manufacturers and long-standing makers of 'classic' kit (Tannoy and the like) to provide the discerning amongst us with something worth buying. That's the sort of kit I want to see at hi-fi shows, not mainstream pap.

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Paul

 

Unrelated but, when I was at the show 2 guys came in the room and took a load of pictures in a 360 degree circle to make one of those 3D 'virtual reality' views of the room.

Anyone know where I can see it? They said it was for 'the website'. I don't see it on the ChesterGroup site though!

Oh and thanks go to Dean for playing some good tunes that bought people in!

 

Transferred question to another thread as this one become - 'loose'

 

Tenson,

That'll be 'Big Johnny' looking for suitable candidates for the next west London swingers party. Smile -- you're on You Tube.

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Paul

 

No, they use Scanspeak Revelator bass units, significantly modified by Rountree. The tweeter is a ribbon of some sort. See www.rountree-acoustics.com but details on the site are a bit sparse.

And, for what it's worth, I was very taken by the sound of these speakers, so further proof of 'each to their own'. It's very disparaging to accuse the designer of simply reinventing the wheel - anyone actually taking the trouble to talk to him would soon find some very original thinking.

 

I spoke to him at length and he was a very nice chap, he explained about the lightweight housing, how the driver was supprted by a central pilar, how the base radiated the sound, how the ribbon tweeter was de-coupled, but the treble was extremely harsh and there was little in the way of bass which threw the h/f even further forward. They looked neat though.