Help for a beginner

Hi. I have been driving myself into a spin reading online forums - doesn't anyone agree on anything?

I have decided to set up a hi fi system. At the moment, I'm in the delightful position of not having ears that have been tuned to appreciate only the highest of hi fi.

Really, what I want is a turntable so that I can get a bit of the air and warmth back in my music. Those are my real priorities.

I'm also aiming for great value rather than the greatest thing on the market.

What I have at the moment: an old Pioneer A 400 and some Bose speakers that used to be my father's.

I'm thinking of getting a Rega P3-24 but might be tempted into a Michell because I love the look of them or alternatively a P5. The other thing I've considered is a second hand model like a TD-150. Any thoughts would be welcome.

I think I'll stick with the A 400 for now unless there's a good reason not to.

What I'd really like is advice on speakers: new or (even better) second hand. I'm happy to spend what's necessary so might end up buying speakers that cost £100 or £500 - as I say, I'm after warmth and value.

What I don't want is nasty rattly vibrations, however, especially not once faced with something challenging like organ music.

I may end up with 2 sets - one for the office (carpeted, thick walls but sensitive neighbours) and one for home (wood floors, I'm afraid).

Anyway, there's a lot of parameters there which is probably why I'm driving myself so nuts but if there are some obvious choices I should be keeping in mind then I'd really like to be pointed in the right direction.

Sam

 

Hi Sam and welcome.

It can all be very confusing, and no, folks on forums rarely agree so you'll get all sorts of conflicting advice.

FWIW this is what I'd do.

Buy a good used Rega Planar 3 with RB300 arm - £200-ish
Fit a new Denon DL110 MC cartridge - £90
Cambridge Audio 640P phono stage - £100

Keep the Pioneer A400, its still a perfectly good amp.

Speakers are a very personal thing but at the budget suggested I'd look at the Rega *RS1 - £329, plus you'll need some tall stands so lets call it £400.

That system will be musically engaging and should keep you happy for many years.

In making these suggestions I'm assuming you aren't the sort to buy up old vintage kit and start pulling it apart or 'improving' it.
If you are such a person there are hundreds of bargains out there but most will need fettling to some degree.


* I'm assuming this update of the R1 sounds at least as good as its predecessor

 

Thanks Rob, that's really helpful. I'll definitely give those Rega speakers a try.

If there were any particularly good second-hand models worth looking for then I'd be interested. I'm useless at this sort of thing myself but my father's on top of it and so if it were only minor things required to fix things up then I should be fine.

 

For a warm sound, keep an eye out for some of the traditionally BBC voiced speakers by Rogers and Spendor.
Again you have to be careful as speakers age in ways that aren't always obvious. The driver surrounds can deteriorate and this isn't always visible until you actually get hold of the speakers.

If you see something that looks like a bargain I'd say ask for advice about it here before committing.

 

buying a used deck will save you money, but you have to be a little careful. Have you a friend you can take with you to check things like 'bearings' ?

Buying a used cartridge is more scary to be honest, an old knackered nail should be replaced as quickly as possible. Rob's Denon is a good reccomendation, and an external phono stage is a must once again. You may find this used.

Speakers are incredibly personal, and down to taste in so many ways.

Reccomendations on speakers are extremely difficult to make.

Bought second hand at a keen price will allow you to experiment and sell on again if it's not to your taste.

This makes every sense with something like speakers, amps, cd players, but a new cartridge is a good idea, unless you manage to score an almost new one with your deck.

Lastly on speakers - some work 'close to a wall' some work far away. Some need a lot of space around them, some don't. Some need a big room to really shine, others dont.. These are definately questions to ask yourself and put answers on here to get more specific speaker advice.

That is my 2p.

Good luck

 

Hi Sammyo,

Welcome to the forum. You will always get people who will disagree. It can make things interesting.

As for the system, you have many choices. Alot depends on how much you want to spend. To get what you are after you will need to listen to the various combinations. This may or may not be easy to do.

The rega P3 will make a good benchmark for starters. At just under £400 + cartridge it will give you good sounds. The P5 & P7 will be good to compare against and you should be able to find a dealer with these in stock.

The Michell turntables are very good. The Gyrodek is one to look at costing £900 upwards + arm & Cartridge. At a cheaper level, Michell do the Tecnodec at around £597 + arm & cartridge.

Another deck that you will have a good chance of hearing are decks by Project.

A deck like the TD-150 can be had & can give yopu excellent sounds if fully tweaked up. It can be a gamble. other decks like the Townshend Rock can be had for similar money.

You could buy 2nd hand and pick up a bargain or try a dealer first time round. Where are you based?


As for speakers, How big is your room? Can they be placed up against a wall or Can they be used in open space? Do you want big or small spekers?

I would stick to high sensitive speakers to get the best out of your amp. A good start point will be a pair of Snell speakers either the Ks, Js or Es. These are available from around £200 upwards 2nd hand. You can also lookout for Audionote speakers as these are very heavily based on the Snell designs. Check the surrounds on the Snells for wear.



SCIDB

 

I'm in central London. Are there any good 2nd hand dealers of good repute?

Thanks for all the advice, it's very much appreciated.

As for the speakers, it's a big room (it's my kitchen/dining/living room all in one) but the speakers will need to be fairly close to the wall (they could be put against a wall). I don't tend to play my music especially loudly.

 

I recently bought some Tannoy mk1 611's (£80) and I can't believe how good they sound, for what were budget speakers. Female vocals are amazingly clear, with a hint of warmth, but they are very revealing and need a powerful amp to control the pair of 8" drivers. I first hooked them up to a little Onix OA21 (60watts per channel) and the bass was a little loose, but it's nice and tight on the end of my Naim 250 power amp.
If you read the comments on http://www.audioreview.com/cat/spea...eakers/tannoy/611mkii/PRD_120655_1594crx.aspx some people say the high frequencies are harsh on the mk1's, but they are as smooth as silk on my system (all DIY modified though). If an Ebay listing I read is correct, they share the same tweeter diaphrams as the studio monitors (System 600, 800, and 1000). But they are an acoustic suspension design (sealed box) unlike the studio monitors, and produce a much tighter, deeper bass than my old Tannoy DMT 10" monitors.
Being quite sensitive, they sound full and alive at low volumes but can also pack some punch when cranked up.
If they are too big, a pair of the smaller, standmount, Tannoy sixes may suite you better (603, 607, 609 etc).

 

Hi. I have been driving myself into a spin reading online forums - doesn't anyone agree on anything?

Doubtful ....

The thorens is a good place to go.

There is a mass of stuff on the net about tweaking these and they are a well proven design.

Yes there are a lot of paremters ....or can be!

welcome btw

 

No, you don't.

Don't forget set -up is half the battle




:MILD:

 

Sammyo,

I normally don't get involved with recommendations online (it is professionally inexpedient for me to do so), but in this case you are just calling out for a dealer visit.

Your questions just seem predicated upon other questions and there are so many conflicting and contradictory answers here that you are likely to end up with something less than half-cocked.

As you are based in Central London, you have a wealth of bricks and mortar dealers to choose from. Phone a bunch, discuss your tastes and your equipment, then pick two or three you like the sound of (no more, they'll just add an extra layer of confusion on at this point), and go for a demo. Bring your own kit and records to the demonstration. The best dealers will set up the turntable for you, and support it for a lot longer than you might need.

You could choose from Walrus Systems, Cornflake Shop, Grahams Hi-Fi, Bartletts Hi-Fi, Oranges & Lemons, Unilet, Infidelity, KJ West One, The Listening Rooms, Riverside, O'Brian Hi-Fi and more. They are all online and most (if not all) have demonstration rooms (although not all will suit your tastes and budget). Some may have S/H equipment as trade-ins, but the cost of London rental makes second-hand turntable sellers a rarity. You might have to travel further afield for that. I'd go with a new deck, correctly set-up, as a starting place tho'.

Instead of taking the say-so of some random person as gospel (and I include myself in this), why not let your own ears decide?

 

ALWAYS let your own ears decide.....


Unfortunately there is s ome sense in what this gentleman says. Just as a thought, alternatively track down zanash on this forum, he has given me invaluable advise on set up, choices etc etc. I feel quite sure he will steer you in the right direction...yoiu want to go. Just focus on one person though to avoid to many contrdictions.

(I trust you don't mind pete?)

 

Thanks Alan, very helpful. I do plan on visiting dealers (in fact I'm going to Graham's this weekend). I certainly don't plan on buying whatever I'm told to. But (a) dealers stock different things and I don't have time to visit them all; and (b) I am not really a sophisticated enough listener to be able to spot a problem on a visit and don't want to end up with something the faults of which I discover only over time once I've bought the thing.

So I will certainly choose based on my own taste, but I want to know that I'm listening to the right things to start with.

That is a great list, though, and you are right - one can get very used to just buying things from distance sellers over the net but this is a different type of product.

 

Thanks to everyone. Really helpful. If I can just milk this generosity for what it's worth before I choose which shops to go to, is there anything that particularly means a speaker will deliver better low-volume performance?

 

Or, conversely, any brands or designs that are less likely to be decent at low volumes?

 

Hi

You have mentioned organs, and now low volume - are you a classical fan?

It is my own personal opinion that ribbons, electrostatics and high efficiency speakers all keep the information coming at low volumes.

That is not to say, that any of those three types of speaker will be your cup of tea.


I should have said this before, it's importance is frequently lost when people are new.... take it to heart, please!!!....

really!

..


whatever the equipment sounds like in the demo room will be absolutely nothing like what it sounds like at home. Nothing at all, not even one bit. Not even enough to get a short-list together. The dealer demo room is an irrelevancy.

This applies to loudspeakers more than anything else.

My reccomendation would be (if you are buying from a shop) ..just tell them you know this is the case, therefore you want to borrow about 3 pairs of speakers to see what works best in your home.

If they say no, they are a shit dealer, frankly - go someplace else!

 

Thanks for the advice, I am taking all of this on board (even though it is not necessarily all consistent).

More than half of what I listen to is classical (the full gamut - ancient, modern, choral, organ, chamber, orchestral), the rest is a mix of synth-pop, guitar rock, folk and jazz. I doubt that helps me very much.

The thing is, I don't drive. Getting to any one of the dealers is a real mission. I live in a third-floor flat. Borrowing sets of speakers, while a lovely idea, is virtually impossible.

But if a demo room is an irrelevance (which makes a fair amount of sense) then how am I supposed to choose? One man reasonably says that I should ignore recommendations and use my ears at the dealer's shop. Another says, ignore everything at the dealer's and take them home but that is unfeasible.

This is getting harder, not easier.

 

Valves but thats not necessarily the route if you are just staring with hifi. ie good at low vols.

I would keep away from naim stuff.



But if a demo room is an irrelevance (which makes a fair amount of sense) then how am I supposed to choose? One man reasonably says that I should ignore recommendations and use my ears at the dealer's shop. Another says, ignore everything at the dealer's and take them home but that is unfeasible.

This is getting harder, not easier.



Your in good company. I'm trying to get my head around rock n roll atm and face exactly the same problems!!

If you don't drive it doesn't make anything any easier.

What i've done over the past few years is to ebay stuff.....you just ahve to take a punt on stuff amd see what it does. If it isn't working for you (meant in a liberal sense obviously...) stick it back on sale again.

Is this an option for you?

You will make mistakes but keep the figures reasonable you'll end up with something you like.

If the money han't dried up i'd be doing that now. With many people turning to squeese boxes there are many good cd players coming on the market.

Don't forget also that (as I hinted earler) set up is half the battle.

Sort out some kit to start with thouigh!





Have you seen the audioreview forum? Some good suggestions there?

 

Hi Sammyo

I do sympathise, I understand the problem..

My reccomendation would be to buy second hand at a good price. You can get the speaker mailed to you. If you buy at a good price you can sell the speakers on for little or no loss.

If you buy new, you will lose about 50% if you need to sell them on if they don't work.

My point about the dealer demo room is just this - the acoustics of the room are the largest factor in determining how the loudspeaker sounds. The room acoustics of the dealer demo room will be entirely different to your own room.

I have made many costly mistakes in the earlier part of my hifi hobby due to choosing to ignore this factor, and it's a common error too.


Here are some speakers I could live with and enjoy, if this helps you. All are used, so present little risk. All are in the rough £500 budget you have. They are also all good with classical, and good at low volume.


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/snell-c-ii-sp...trkparms=65:12|66:2|39:1|72:1300|293:1|294:50

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Quad-ESL-57-E...trkparms=65:12|66:2|39:1|72:1300|293:1|294:50

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tannoy-speake...trkparms=65:12|66:2|39:1|72:1300|293:1|294:50

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Matched-Pair-...trkparms=65:12|66:2|39:1|72:1300|293:1|294:50

These speakers are old, that is true.
The modern equivalents of these speakers cost £2000-£7000.
They are significantly better than speakers you will buy new for around £500.

Hope this helps a little.

Cheers.

*edit*
I should also add, most of the speakers on this list are 'legendary'. True, timeless classics. Left to your own devices, if you stay interested in the hobby, they are the type of speaker you would return to in perhaps 10 years having tried more modern speakers of limited price, and found them wanting... lets talk a little more about these speakers for fun -

LS3/5a - a classic loudspeaker, one of the most famous of all time. Designed and used for the BBC for broadcasting/monitoring application. Revered all around the globe.
Quad 57. Believed by some to be the best loudspeaker ever made. Possible, but definately an amazing achievement, incredible detail at low volume and one of the best classical speakers out there. Again, world famous, revered everywhere!
Snell C. Not the most famous of Snell designs. Snell speakers are now sold as 'Audionote' (long version cut short). Some Audionote E's will cost you £3,000+ new. Another classic, but perhaps the C isn't in the same super league of famousness as the 57 and the LS3/5a. Well it definately isn't , but it's still a great speaker - and easy to drive with a simple amp.
Tannoy dual concentric. People are almost religeous about their Tannoy dual concentrics. The larger dual concentrics in bigger boxes are the best. This looks reasonably big, so you will be safe as long as the drivers are in good nick. Cant see from the photos. Once again, Tannoy dual concentrics met their fame in recording studios in the 70's. The Tannoy DC is one of the best transducers ever made. Not in my opinion, as a matter of fact.

Truth be told, I'm quite impressed with my little list


Last thing to be said - the Snells are being sold by the Emporium. I know Nick there well. He is trustworthy, you will get what you have paid for.
The LS3's have their drivers showing, you should be fine.
The Tannoys dont have any drivers showing - are they in good nick? can't see!!
The Quads - well you can't see the panels but he says all is fine..l

 

There you go....

Some where to start?