Help me understand ethnic rhythms

A comment that Merlin wrote over on the "Nitin" thread got me thinking:

Myself, as somone with an entirely western upbringing find melodies and harmonic development in music to be the most natural elements in a piece of music on which to latch on to.

Now, for most forms of folk or ethnic music from far eastern cultures, it's rhythmic development that's the main focus. Rhythmic development that are far more complex and subtle than most western music.

I enjoy the "sound" of quite a lot of oriental music (and by oriental I mean anything from the Asia Pacific area of world), but mainly play it for something different to listen to on the odd occassion. But I don't play a lot of it, because mainly for me, there is something missing that I get from an emotional from a piece of western music.

Sure, a lot of it isn't what you might call atonal but that part of it seems mainly incidental, just like the rhythm is "there" but mainly incidental on a piece of western music. So is listening to say Indian or Chinese more of a cerebal experience for most western listeners/minds, or can the same types of emotional connections and experiences be as deep as are (IMHO) with western music.

As a footnote, my parents are both native Hong Kong Chinese. I was born and brought up over here in England, and have lived here all my life. My dad use to play a lot Chinese classical music which we use to listen to on car journeys, but he never force fed or educated me in the technical why and where fors. So culturally, despite my parentage, I still feel my cultural understanding are very western biased.

Is it possibel to "get" eastern music without getting all cerebal and intellectual, or is a bit of education necessary in order to understand what's going on? Comments?

 

I don't see why not. After all, it's like anything you listen to, just trust your ears to help you decide whether you like something.

I'd say see what there is in the library, but knowing our library, not a great deal. Bottom line though, if you like what you hear and it moves you, then I'd say you "get it". If, upon listening to something, it doesn't appeal to you, I can't see that studying the origins of the music or whatever are going to make you enjoy hearing it any more.

I've not really heard that much, save the odd bits and pieces over the years on Andy Kershaw's programmes on Radio 1 etc. but there's definitely much more to eastern music than the sitar, although that's all you commonly hear about due to the Beatles use of it.

 

I personally find the complex rhythms in, say, West African drumming 'music' very compelling. I don't know that they're hard to understand (I don't think so) but they're much more complex than the attempts to copy them by Western minimalist composers such as Steve Reich, Michael Nyman and, to some extent Gyorgi Ligeti (and no doubt others).

Allthough I was born in the UK, I didn't live there long and my parents soon shipped out to Benin City in Nigeria where I lived for the first 3 years of my life (not that I remember that much ) but I guess I was exposed to a lot of Nigerian music at an early age (my dad loves it). Nothing like the sound of a well played Nigerian thumb piano :MILD:

Michael.

 

I think it's possible. I find an emotional connection with quite a lot of Indian music that I've heard OTOH I find Chinese music a bit harder to relate to.

Non-Western music uses different tonal scales (modes, I think they're called) and the harmonies are often totally different to conventional Western 12 semi-tones per octave (doubling of frequency). I think that once you've "tuned in" though it's easy to get the emotional connection.

Michael.

 

I think the Chinese musical scale is a version of the old five-note one found in music all over the world. (The reason why some Scottish tunes can be played on the black keys of the piano). I've been told that the difference between the Oriental and Occidental five-note scales is only one semitone, yet that makes a big difference.

The melodic structure of Indian classical music is closer to the western ideas of harmony; it is melodically simple but rhythmically very complex - and almost completely improvised!

 

I think you're right Tones - Chinese music is basically pentatonic, as is a lot of Spanish and Middle Eastern music (and for that matter, Portuguese "Fado" - they all (apart from Chinese) have the same Arabic influences).

As you say though not all pentatonic scales are the same

Michael.

 

isn't it interesting how throughout diverse cultures and times music has such great similarities no matter where you look. the concept of creating a pleasing organised sound is the only prerequisite for "music", yet there are so many common sonic inventions used throughout the world. are there any styles/cultures of music which do not use rythmn or melody? i wonder what the different styles can tell us about their respective cultures? conversely, what can the similarities across the scope tell us about ourselves?

as for enjoying the music of other cultures, i don't really understand the question. i don't think anyone can /tell/ you how to enjoy music, no matter how well educated. just listen and over time you will enjoy it if you like it

have you ever had friends who played music you didn't like? i've found that over time (sometimes a LONG time) and with repeated exposure i often slowly start to enjoy the music, after many months i may even find myself buying it

..i think that's radio 1's business model

all that said i don't think there's much point trying to force yourself into certain styles, these things come naturally to everyone

 

Lenny Bernstein was fascinated by the idea of a common musical heritage, and he delivers this concept in the famous Norton lectures:

http://www.leonardbernstein.com/studio/element.asp?FeatID=7&AssetID=24

I've only ever seen the first one, but it was fascinating. At one point, Lenny asks, why do children taunt each other with

NAAA-NAAA-NANAA-NAAAAAAH!

(and you'll instinctively know the notes)? Because this is part of a musical scale that is fundamental to the whole of mankind. Notes whose frequencies bear a simple mathematical relationship to each other.

 

looks very interesting tones, wouldn't mind seeing that but i can't see myself buying it maybe i'll catch it sometime on OU or something

does the 'naa-naa-nana-naa' thing get used all over the world? if so that's amazing. i've wondered for a while now why scales and harmonics seem so intrinsic to us. i don't understand why a set of frequencies played one after another is percieved as pleasing, while another set is not

rythmn however makes perfect sense as a measure of time and is not at all limited to music, look at your watch for example. i can't think of any dynamic object (natural or synthetic) that doesn't display some kind of rythmn. i can't say the same for the relationship between different frequencies

is there a known reason why our perception of harmonics works the way it does? some psychological or biochemical explanation?

sorry if this is a little off topic, but i think the answers to these questions might be pertinent to HenryT's query

 

Probably something to do with my inherently stubon personality, but I find this doesn't usually work at all with me. The more I hear something I hate, the more I hate it.

Radio 1 only ever provokes instant reactions of how I can mute or re-tune the radio that's producing this drivel ASAP!

I very rarely like playing the same piece of music/album over and over again, once I've played something new once or two it'll get filed away and maybe come out again a month or two later. Playing music that I like too much also makes me less likely to want to hear it again a short while later - continuous auto reverse cassette decks and repeat facilities on CDPs weren't invented for me that's for sure.

Anyway, I digress. Yes, definitely agree with everyone who has siad that you should just be able to listen to a piece of music without prior conditiong and be able to appreciate or like it for what it is.

Also, I'm aware of the differences between the 12 note western scales of western music and the 5 note model scales used in eastern and many folk musics. It's certainly not the shape of harmonies that are putting me off, just the apparent lack of harmonic development compared to western music (because the complexity is in the rhythms instead).

Like I said, I do have a few albums of various ethnic musics, including Indian, Chinese, Japanese and other different types of music mainly because they make a nice change occasionally and I enjoy the "sound". One thing which perhaps prevents me investing further in "rhymically biased" ethnic music is that I can't "remember" what I've heard by the time I've got to the end of the piece. I have no idea what is going on in a lot of Indian classical music for example, so I wonder if pointers for what to listen out for or latch onto might bring some enlightenment. On the other hand, perhaps I'm missing the point and as a listener then intention should be get hipnotised by the music instead - in which case the music becomes more "background" and background music for me is somewhat anathema.

African musics of various sorts that I've heard so far I can get on with, as it tends to be quite vibrant, so even when it's just drumming, there is still apparently plenty of interest and it is still "western" in flavour so isn't too far removed from what I'm familar with.

One thing I am wondering I guess, is how many people listen and are aware of, or have become "instincitively" aware the patterns and structures, or are you more casual about it and fairly non discriminant about it all?

 

Sadly for lennie, not all children all over the world use that particular phrase. Nice idea, but wrong (and I have practical experience in this at least).

Which "Ethnic" rhythms are we talking about anyway... There is a world of rhythm and melody out there - some of it very very strange indeed. It is down to the individual and their ability to open their ears and mind to the new (or extremly old) and different.

Michael makes an interesting point when he says that West African drum band music is not *that* difficult. The individual parts, with the exception of the lead drummer, are not very complex - but layered together in crossing "vertical" and "horizontal" polyrhythms they create a dense, pulsing powerful mass of sound. One, that is according to those who have tried, impossible to transcribe into western notation in any meaningful way (perhaps helps explain why Western composers have failed).

Talking of which, I'm currently listening to some Turkish "dance" music from Southern Anatolia - mostly Saz lute and violin - the guy who recorded it tried transcribing it into notation, what he got when finished was a dance tune with over 930BPM...

Chinese music is totally amazing, but it is better I think to talk of musics - the range and variation is staggering. Some of it, like the classical music of Yunnan Province is spellbindly beautiful, and yes, rather Celtic in an ethereal pentatonic kind of way.

These days ethnomusicologists seem to use terms like pentatonic much less than they used to. I think the the reality is that a lot of music simply does not fit into the western way of writing sound either in rhythm or melody. Or maybe they don't use those terms because there are more people like me listening to this stuff.

The point of a lot of music is not that it is an end in itself, but that it is designed to take you into yourself or help you get closer to God. That is perhaps why it doesn't seem to go anywhere.

I guess I'm just someone who likes to wander and gets lost and does not feel the overriding need to be in total control of everything all the time. There is an art to getting lost...

I think I'll stop before this all gets too pseudo-Chatwinesque.

 

joel,
you raise an interesting point in the inability of western musical notation to be able to cope with certain kinds of other cultures music. are there alternative musical notations specificly designed by these cultures that are able to cope with these pieces or are they purely improvisation or memorised?
also this 930 bpm turkish music sounds interesting what is / was it?
cheers

julian

 

Ju -


IME:

Western instruments - guitars, basses, pianos etc are tuned as follows -

C, C sharp, D, D sharp, E, F, F sharp, G, G sharp, A, A sharp, B.

Instruments from alternative cultures split an octave up entirely differently... for example The Sitar has quarter tones - or notes between the 1/2 tones shown above. It would be impossible to play that music on most western instruments, because of their design. Musical notation was a case of form following function, and it is really designed to portray musical notes from the above scale.

Probably hasnt helped, but I had a go! hehe

Cheers
Chris

 

??

 

Hope you don't mind me stepping in here, but this is real GCSE stuff, and my year 10's are sick of it

So here goes;
Pentatonic is essentially the basis of all really old music you can trace it back to the Greeks and the Romans if you want to, also Java with Gamelan music, China and Japan with their secular music (It's important to remember that sacred and secular are different) The other tradition based on Pentatonic is Western Folk Music (including Eastern Europe and Russia!)

Pentatonic has as you all agree 5 notes. The pentatonic scale follows the pattern of the black notes, it has no start and no finish, but essentially there are no semitones (half-steps).

The next important thing to remember is that when you look at tonality (notes) in music that music doesn't just move stepwise it jumps, and these are measured in semitones, so two semitones makes a tone, 3 semitones a minor third, 4 semitones a minor fourth etc....

This lead to the first big invention in western music the modes that Michael mentioned. Now think of a piano. Between a white and a black note next door to each other there is a semitone, between most (not all) white notes there is a tone so if you start on different white notes and play each white note in turn until you get to the same note an 'ocatave' higher you will have played a scale. If you start on a different note and follow the same procedure you will play a different scale as the tones and semitones will be organised differently. There are 7 modes

Iolian (starting on C)
Dorian (starting on D)
Phrygian (Starting on E)
Lydian (Starting on F)
Myxolyidian (Starting on G)
Aeolian (Starting on A)
Locrian (Starting on B)

These were widely used from the 13th century onwards. The most common were Dorian and Aeolian which you will hear being used in Gregorian chant. You will never hear Locrian being used as it was considered to be the devil's scale.

The next development was the Major/Minor tonality you hear used now. The Iolian mode is in fact a major scale, following the pattern tone, tone, semitone, tone tone tone, semitone. The minor scale follows a pattern that is very close to a mixture of Dorian going up (ascending, rising in pitch), except the penultimate note is raised one semitone) this is to make it obvious that the scale is heading towards home (the tonic), and it is the same pattern as the Aeolian going down (descending) The first note of the scale became known as the tonic, and pieces were then written in various keys, ie C major, D minor. The letter is the tonic note of the piece. This system persists until today.

Now for the really complicated bit.

In Chinese and Indian cultures formal (sacred music) grew up slightly differently. If you imagine the jump between C and D, if you have an instrument handy play it. Now imagine that i you were to draw it on graph there would be nine squares between these two notes. These would be called minutes (don't ask me why) The difference between C and C# would be 5 minutes but the difference between C and D flat would only be 4. This is why Bach had to develop tempering for keyboards (another story entirely but also gives if you think about it the option to have only two minutes between notes or possibly 3. These are known as microtones, and they feature heavily in Indian Music and Chinese 'Opera'

In Indian music the scales are called Ragas. Each Raga has a significance, it may be an evening Raga, a Raga related to a religious festival. There are thousands. To perform a raga you would start with a drone (two long sustained notes that wouldn't change) and then add a rhythm (a Taal). Then the melody would be improvised by moving stepwise up and down the scale. Some of the steps might be tones and semitones, some of them may be microtones.

Chinese music works in a similair way, but it would have been more formal in it's performance, with the music not being improvised.

I hope this helps. I will steel myself to try and answer the questions about rhythms later. That's not as complicated fortunately as basically rhythm just describes the duration of a note in the context of the piece.

 

Cor blimey guv, this got the scholars out of bed didn't it

To answer your original question Henry, I do get it, I have some of it, and I appreciate the complexity and musicianship on show. On an intellectual level only. Simply put, I will not put an Indian raga on and feel goosebumps, or remember the piece for the rest of the day. I don't want a finger piano solo played at my funeral, nor have any of my most memorable moments been associated with listening to Malasian tribal ensembles.

So as an interesting listen so called world music really can refresh me. But give me the real stuff to pull the heartstrings. You do not need to be tought to love, it's a basic human instinct.

 

erm, well Chinese music goes back to well before the Greeks / Romans (and I have an album of "ancient" greek music by Carlos Paniagua - TBH, I don't think anyone "really" knows what ancient Greek music sounded like - certainly not like this album )

Still, "pentatonic scale" is IMMHO, a Western term that is used to shoehorn non-Western music. As a general descritiption it seems OK, but it falls down in the detail. There seem so many exceptions and get outs when used to describe quite a lot of music, I wonder about the value of using such a term. It ends up being more misleading than anything, especially when taken literally.

Looking forward to that!

AM Jones left behind a very interesting and illuminating note on transcribing rhythm (in this case, I think he was thinking particularly about West African drum bands of such peoples as the the Ewe and Ashanti) :
Any attempt to write African music in the European manner, with bar lines running down right down the score and applying to all the contributing instruments simultaneously is bound to lead to confusion. It gives the impression that all but one of the contributors is highly syncopated, and the mulitutude of tied notes and off-beat accents make the mind reel. Looked at from the point of view of each player, african music is not syncopated nor is it complicated except for the master-drummer rhythms

For those who think this is some kind of "intellectual excercise" -well, you couldn't be further from the truth I'm afraid. No worries. I'm sure you will continue to be amazed by the wonderousness of your system, whatever the music you play happens to be.

 

Looking forward to the next installment Lord, when you get some more time.


Spent a very enjoyable in last night with Radio 3 (see my posting in the classical thread). After the Proms concert there was coverage of this weekend's WOMAD festival in Reading. The selection of live performances and recordings made earlier on in the day was mainly of African musicians. Real roots stuff, you could hear were reggae and blues came from, but this was very much it's own style of music and also goes to show how wide ranging music can be in style in from one country. :MILD: Some very nice Indian flute music played last night too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/world/womad2003/schedule.shtml

 

OK then once more unto the breach dear friends.....

Rhythm strictly means the differing durations of notes. In order to play any piece of music you need to be able to determine the pitch (high/low) of a note and also how long it will last for. Rhythm is what you get when you combine combinations of notes.

In order to make it simpler most pieces of music written during the 17th , 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries had a metre, ie the rhythms were divided up into groups, usually of 2, 3, 4 or 6.
There are two types of conventional metre, simple where the sub-divisions are in twos, or compound where the sub-divisions are in 3 threes.

These are determined by first of all finding the 'pulse' of the music. Try putting on a piece of Mozart or Haydn, tap along in time, eventually you will be able to achieve a regular 'beat' If there are sometimes 2 or 4 notes inbetween your beats, the piece is in simple time, if there are 3 or 6 it is in compound time. A good simple time piece is Mozarts 40th symphony's first movement. A compound piece would be Beethovens violin concerto's last movement.

Things get more complicated when you move into other areas like African Drum music. This is not from a written tradition, but it has been passed down aurally. It can be written down, but it will inevitably involve lots of 'syncopation' this is where notes don't sit regularly on the beat (think of your hand tapping). It may not have a regular metre either, so on a piece of paper it will look very complicated. These pieces also rely heavily on 'polyryhthms' this is when lots of complicated ryhthms are stacked on top of each other sometimes clashing, often never quite fitting. This reached the Western Classical Tradition in the late 19th century, it is particularly evident in Stravinskys two 1912 ballets The Rite of Spring and Petroushka.

Some claimed it would be impossible to notate many kinds of ethnic music. I would refute this, but certainly some types would be tricky to say the least. Certainly if someone can play it, it is possible to write down it's rhythm. The difference is that Western Music tends to rely upon a regular pulse or metre, and other cultures less so.

 

Hello Lordsummit,
Just a couple of points...
FYI African music is *not* syncopated, at all - it just looks that way when written down in western notation. It is also highly metronomic.

Cheers,

Joel