High Expectations (take 2)

As the original thread has descended into farce I'll try again (and for Garyi I'll try harder not to "load" the question)

If you are paying for high end kit, what standard of performance and finish do you expect?

The definition of high end in this instance is either "above £5000" or "the best a manufacturer makes" (i.e. the flagship range)

 

My amp comes with a 20 year guarantee, sounds great and is built like a world war 1 battleship (i.e. solid, none of yer lightweight later nonsense!).
Can't ask for more than that from a manufacturer.
Seems amazing that some will only give 1 years guarantee - aren't sure about their product perhaps?

 

As mentioned before, I expect battleship build, total reliability together with top sound quality. If you are buying a top quality item, I dont see how the three can be separated.

The manufacturers of my CDP offer a 10 year guarantee on all of their kit which I think demonstrates their commitment to build quality and reliability.

 

Robbo, are you sure that Sim's 10yr guarantee is valid in the UK aswell? I thought that Sim were one of the several North American manufacturers who had laudable 10-20yr guarantees which inexplicably shrunk to 2-5yr guarantees outside of North America

As an answer to the question though, I agree with what you said.

Michael.

 

You are right michael, the warranty outside the US is only 3 years as it is offered by the distrubutor and not Sim, but at least the 10 year North American warranty means they have confidence in their products. That gives me confidence too!

 

As far as what to expect from a Class product? well all of the above comments and top quality customer service IF there ever was a problem.
I would expect 'choice parts' inside my piece of equipment too.
Now I do get to see a lot of 'Innerds' of various makes and models, and to be frank, a lot of the so called 'High end' kit has mid-term parts
Now these may have been selected for a 'sonic reason' yet the use of 85C components is shocking, even if only for pure longevity 105C stuff of the same value & quality.yet it may add 2p per component multiply this by 'x' 100 thousand and the been counters rear the ugly (but neccessary heads again)
One of the worst units I've seen (for skimping) is a rega, plastic circuit boards/no filtering and much cheapness parts and basic wiring, yet it functions well enough, reminds me of a old Trouser snake song 'Cheap & nasty'
The measure of a company should also include how well your treated when there is a problem as well as the thanks you $£$£$£ good bye sir
Basic requirements for 'Flagship models' Bomb-proof build, total functionality, upgradability, quality sound, connectivity all forms,modular design minimum 3 year warranty NO QUIBBLE, neat ergonomics and high residule values.
Just one point here, I had a 9 Y.O. Linn Karick a few months back, I give it a service before pasing it on, spotless inside, perfect working order, very littlre wear, and all electronics spot on. Linn were incrediably helpful over technical queries, this from a product well off the stock list too.

 

i could use my amps to club someone to death and they'd still work afterwards. if they ever do crap out i can send them back to the factory and they'll fix and update them for a reasonable charge. there are also 3rd party speciallists who offer a similar or enhanced service for these amps. as my amps (and psu's) are all over 10 years old and still sound excellent i'd say my confidence in them is well placed.
this is what i expect if i spend over 1000 ukp for an item never mind 5000.
my biggest quibble though would be with sample variation, where 2 similar amps (or other kit) worked just fine yet sounded significantly different. i know the manufacturer of my amps make a big deal out of component matching and selection, whether this is warranted or even necessary is unclear however it's good to know that the manufacturer has considered this issue. i have heard (apocryphal) stories of expensive kit that suffers from huge ( ) sample variations (or has done in the past). for 5k i'd expect this not to be an issue.
cheers

julian

 

I think a 5 year warranty is a reasonable expectation, whatever the price. And some effort to service or help with all products whatever their history or age.

Interestingly the Simaudio warranty on CD players limits coverage of the transport to 1 year upgradeable on registration to 3. The remainder of the player is 2 years upgradeable to 10.

Paul

 

My ATC is guaranteed for 6 years and built to survive a nuclear blast

 

Just a little titbit here, I have a 11 Y.O wadia (6) in at the moment for check over. other than a dust removal session, check of all ac/dc power rails, digital and ananlogue signals, and a wipe over its cock on. So it can be done

 

So let me get this right. Sim Audio (whose products I've only heard at a show once) offers a 10 year warranty in the U.S. but none in the U.K. Instead it is up to the distributor to offer a 3 year warranty? Now, rough mathematics tells me that there is a 7 year difference in the warranty periods there. So my question is: are the Sim Audio products sold in North America the same as those sold in the U.K. or are those sold in the U.K. dumbed down versions of the American ones? It stikes me as very odd that an American high-end manufacturer would not have enough confidence in its products sold abroad to offer the same period of warranty i.e. 10 years, worldwide.

In terms of high expectations, well I must take my hat off to anyone who can spend GBP 7k, 8k or 10k and beyond on a CD player. I don't have the balls to do that regardless of how much money I've got sitting in my bank account. Having said that, if one bought say a CD player at those elevated price levels, one would expect to see flawless build quality with no excuses being made for silly faults occuring that could have been nabbed at the quality control stage. The problem for a lot of people, not just audiophiles, is that they mistakenly equate high prices with good quality. The sad reality is that it is not always so and people do end up paying for manufacturers' bad designs and poor quality control procedures.

Although not in the same price brackets, the Resolution Audio Opus 21 CD player was introduced with a noisy, or shall I say, defective transport. A new transport was introduced after several complaints from customers but instead of a free retrofit, Resolution Audio was asking customers for around EUR 300 and referring to it an an upgraded transport. Existing owners fell for it and coughed-up the cash much to my amazement so can you blame high-end manufacturers for selling pricey but poor quality products to very hungry audiophiles. As they say, never go shopping when you are very hungry.

P.S. Doesn't Bryston offer a 20 year world-wide warranty on all its products?



Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

Is this something you do to all CD players? Will it make mine sound better?

Seriously I'd expect titanic build and not to have to replace it until I'd got bored of it, or something seriously better came along. In fact I'd expect not to get bored with it and it to be pretty much a lifetime purchase

 

Lawrie, it's quite common in high end hifi for overseas distributors to provide the warranty on products rather than the manufacturer. Apart from anything else, it means customers can get the product serviced and fixed locally rather than shipping it all the way back to wherever. These arrangements are obviously agreed with the manufacturer and are part of the distribution deal.

The length of warranty that a distributor decides to offer depends on various factors and, rather like insurance, they calculate the likely risk of product failure and therefore the likely cost to them of various warranty periods. The longer the warranty, the higher the cost obviously. If they calculate that 3yrs is all they can afford that's what they'll offer.

It has nothing to do with products being different or dumbed down for overseas markets. Sim clearly believes the benefits of local service outweigh the potential sales disadvantage (IMO very slight) of having a shorter warranty.

I still think it stinks but I understand why it is the way it is.

Another tactic that many North American high-end manufacturers have is that the warranty becomes invalid when the product is sold on to new owner (second hand). This is regardless of how long (in some cases 20 years) the warranty was to begin with. Second hand buyers get no warranty. They justify it by saying that s/h buyers don't earn them any money so don't deserve their service for free. They obviously haven't thought about what would happen to their new sales if there were no s/h buyers

Michael.

 

i think it's unrealistic to expect anything with moving parts to last more than 5 years - they probably will but anything over this should be considere a bonus imho. solid state amps or dacs however should last 20+ years with no problems.
cheers


julian

 

Yes, and Densen offer a unlimited 'lifetime' warranty (now to the original purchaser, it used to be transferable). Both companies do this on all their products, not just the expensive ones. With Densen you pay to get the item shipped back to them, they do the rest – I'm not sure how the Bryston one works. Rega used to do the same when they made just the Planar 2 & 3, but I suspect they have changed this now. It is worth noting that Densen make CD players, so the warranty will cover those transport failures that other companies will charge you serious money to replace - this factor alone would put the Beat 400 at the top of my list if I were in the market for a decent CD player.

Tony.

 

Really Michael? I don't agree with that entirely. I am quite friendly with several distributors here (including two in the U.K.) and although faulty products are repaired locally at an approved repair shop, the repairs are done in consultation with the manufacturer. This cuts down on shipping expenses and the risk of damage etc. The products all have a manufacturer warranty which is the same around the world e.g. 5 years. Distributors can offer extended warranties for customer peace of mind especially where the manufacturer warranty is too short e.g. 1 year but I have never heard of a distributor agreeing to shoulder the responsibility for manufacturers' poor quality control procedures by undertaking to offer their own warranties whilst none are being offered by the manufacturer. If that is the case, is it any surprise that quality control with many high-end components is not as good as it should be for the prices asked as the manufacturers don't feel responsible for the quality of their own products?

Given your explanation above, I would assume that Sim's Nth American distributor (there must be one unless Sim sells directly to the public) has enough confidence in the products to offer a 10 year warranty. By your reasoning, this, therefore should make the products more expensive in the U.S. than they are the U.K. where the distributor only offers 3 years. So are Sim Audio products cheaper in the U.K. than they are in the U.S? Anyone know the answer to this? I just can't help feeling that the 7 year discrepancy in warranty periods on the 'same brand' between the two countries, the U.K. & U.S, is too wide. What factors would be responsible for such a discrepancy between the two countries? Voltage, weather etc?

This doesn't just apply to NA hifi manufacturers but also applies to many products worldwide so we can let of them off on this one. Anyway, I hear you on this one and yes, it stinks.



Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

This sounds wonderful, but doesn't it actually depend upon what is considered to be the lifetime of a CDP. I've examined the warranty of a few manufacturers of electronic equipment (my own included), and the average "lifetime" warranty seems to equate to 7 years when you read the smallprint. Still a good warranty though.

 

TonyL,

Thanks for that confirmation and the info about Bryston. Btw, I wasn't aware that Densen offered such a warranty.



Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

Lawrie, I don't have answers for you and I don't own any Sim products but I don't think there's any evidence at all that the products sold outside of North America (Sim are Canadian) are any different to any others apart from the transformer perhaps.

Sim products are much cheaper in the US than in the UK (it's roughly dollar for pound as is the norm in these things). I think you knew that though. I also suspect that you're trying to get a rise out of Robbo

If you really want to know the answers, you're probably better off giving Sim a call and I'm sure they'd explain the reasons to you. Sim are not the only company to over much shorter warranties on products shipped overseas. I happen to know the Portuguese distributor of Sim products and he happens to tell me that the situation is more or less as I described it in my previous post.

Michael.

 

Michael,

I was only responding to your comments as the arguments you put forward just didn't add-up. As you say Sim Audio are not the only ones involved in this pratice. Okay, we are now discussing Sim but it could have been Brand X so why on earth do you think that my comments were directed at Robbo? I have nothing personal against the man and your comments could provoke some negative reaction from Robbo when none was intended on my part. Perhaps you should consider deleting your reference to Robbo don't you think?

I am not that desperate to find out why there is such a huge discrepancy with Sim Audio warranties (so will not be contacting Sim as I don't own any of their products) but in the spirit of the discussion, it would have been good if someone was able to shed some more light on this on the forum.



Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.