High expectations.

I'm curious. I've been following a debate elsewhere where it's been pointed out that the may be some QC issues with a £7k box. Now I don't want to get into product slagging, so I won't mention the company nor the product but as I say I'm curious as to people's views.

The general consensus elsewhere is that it is acceptable that a product that price is either leaving the factory in an inconsistent manner or that it is so accutely tuned that under certain (admitedly rare) circumstance the box will not function.

Any views from this camp.

 

Would you expect a £30k lexus or a £150k ferrari to be more reliable, have more consistent build quality, etc?

And for exactly the same reasons, the mass market item is more reliable and more consistent.

Where an item is going to sell by the tens or hundreds of thousands (or possibly millions), then the manufacturer can make a lot of prototypes, a few hundred pre-production, run them all in in all sorts of conditions with all sorts of other factors (fuel, tyres, oil, etc for a car, other bits of kit for hifi) and improve the reliability vastly. Where you have a very high-end piece of kit you have only a few prototypes (which get hacked up and "evolve"), and a small pre-production which can't be tested as widely due to smaller resource available. Consequently, the finished item is not as sorted as it could be.

Does it mean that poor quality should be accepted or even expected in the more expensive things we buy? No, not necessarily, but if there is something that thing can do (like a ferrari drives like no other) then it might well be that there are those who will forgive flaws, unreliability and "idiosyncrasies" to experience something unique.

 

You're right Isaac. But since you used Ferrari in your example, I just wanted to point out that, whilst very few cars will be able to match Lexus for reliability, Ferrari's are now extremely well built and reliable. The turning point was roughly the mid 90's when De Montezemolo made quality a serious issue again at Ferrari. This has also carried through to the F1 team (or perhaps the other way around) which has simply incredible reliability.

I think it also came about as people are less and less likely to forgive reliability issues in expensive equipment, whether it's cars or hifi or anything else.

If I paid £7K for a hifi box and it didn't work I'd be furious. IMO it's not acceptable. IMO in (very) expensive hifi, part of what you're paying for is meticulous quality control which is labour intensive (and therefore costs a lot).

Michael.

 

if i was paying 7k for a bit of kit then i'd expect the demo unit to sound like the new unit i'd bought. if not i'd be severely pissed off. as for reliability certainly i'd expect it - or a long warranty if there were known issues if paying 7k.
cheers


julian

 

just to add that although this is mostly true (large production runs will allow automated quality controls in place for better cost) you have a few examples, even in the car arena, where small production runs and handmade, customised service is one of the main selling factors, and people that buy them do so with the full expectation that it will be faultless. This is how companies like Bentley and Morgan built their reputation, and the reason why there are long waiting lists (for Morgan at least) and very high prices paid.

so i don't think that using the "small number of produced units" excuse is a good one, myself.

my two cents
jack

 

So the cds3 having a few glitches eh? (or possibly the ill thought out, hurriedly rushed into production dvd player?), I'd be pissed about paying well over the odds for an slightly above average cdp, and then to find it faulty, most unsatisfactory, perhaps a letter to trading standards would help speed things up

 

It is true that poor reliability is not endemic to small-production run items. Quality goes up, price goes up. The thing is, there's a middle ground of companies... too small to do the big mass testing/production, too big to do the handbuilt attention of a master craftsman. Many high-end hifi companies fall in this range. There are those high end companies who DO put this level of attention in (Burmester for one), but when you get to the bigger, like Naim, Linn, Quad etc, it is harder work.

The demand for high levels of quality from small manufacturers means that many are unable to remain independant (Maserati now part of ferrari/fiat, Lambo and Bentley now part of VAG, Aston part of Ford) and be financially viable. We are starting to see the same thing in the hifi industry, with groups like IAG, Audio Partnership, D&M holdings, etc.

 

Not to mention the numbers & been counters get all twitchy at this point too!

 

talking of QC, I have seen a couple of MF insides of late, and the newer ones are far better than pre 1996.
They look good on the outside, sexy even, and are really reliable, and dare I say it, compared to the competition, keenly priced.
I think they are a little dull or perhaps more diplomatic, safe sounding, but who am I to say if others like them, they are doing some things right, and maybe its simply an aquired taste. One does adapt to sound, side by side reveals contrasts, but long term you can get used to anything.
alas, maybe I am becoming a pipe and slippers stodgy old gyet.
Suprised about a 7k item, esp. if its from a big company, if its a small one, cottage style, fair enuff, the price is all about profit, but from one with expertise and 20+ yrs, one would expect more.

 

I strongly disagree with this. I put up with the famed unreliability of dpa gear for a good few years and when I replaced it, the top priority was to find brands which have solid build quality and reliability.

Nowadays, if I am to pay serious money for high quality gear, I expect it to be consistent and reliable.

 

I concur, to pay 7k, it must be reliable and tested under all conditions, and I expect that of most things I buy now, whatever the price, and generally only seek out those which are reliable and don't cause problems selling, this entails that the maker is giving good support, easily accessible, should the worst happen> This applies to all goods.

IF it is naim, then perhaps like man utd their golden days are over? the ferguson fortress is crumbling

Life has more than enuff problems.

 

imho naims golden days ended when J.V. died. they now seem to have now taken a more conformist route with the sound and layout of their kit which subjectively has diluted the brand. nothing wrong with that especially in todays hi-fi climate however their kit has lost a bit of it's 'magic' for me.
cheers


julian

 

Or perhaps the RKR CD Burner is playing up?

Paul

 

What's that got to do with the price of eggs. We are NOT discussing a specific case but general expectations at a price point.

 

It has everything to do with whether there is actually a problem in the particular case that lead to this thread, and with a product and company that are being opined upon in this thread.

But, FWIW, I'd expect any CDP at any price level from any manufacturer to run for ever or 10 years, whichever comes first, and to play any valid CD. Touchiness over CDRs wouldn't be a big deal.

Paul

 

No, if you read the original post you will see I asked about the general and not the specific, deliberately. That was because I didn't want this thread to become bogged down in a ProNaim-anti RKR flame fest. I am genuinely interested in the views of the general topic and want to garner views from those who are not brand loyal or even box loyal. Something which seems to get in the way of any debate I've seen over the last ten years. If you wish to discuss the specific there is a discussion going on elsewhere.

 

When I spend money for a Hifi unit my priorities are:
1) sound quality
2) the rest

Of course I would not buy a product if I know that in most cases it will brake down very quickly.
If I bought something very expensive and it didn't work at my place, I just would expect that they replace or repair the unit free. Of course I wouldn't be happy but considering the fact that there is always a possibility that something can go wrong and I just had bad luck, I would accept the situation.

 

Tom for someone that didn't want the thread to be 'bogged down', you certainly loaded it up at the beginning.

I think perhaps its precisely what you wanted

 

Tom

Holier than you seems very appropriate.

Regards

Mick

 

Chaps

I dare say some of you read the Naim forum and we have a classic case of a few old women waffling on about Naim CDP's being unable to play cheap reproduced CD's. It is the same old tribe of barrack room lawyers.

I have the CDP and it has played anything thrown at it.

It appears some pillock is whinging that a 30p blank disc downloaded from some dubious site does not give perfect reproduction.

Bit like pouring parafin into a Bently.

Regards

Mick