Integrating a sub

Just got back from my hols and thought I'd play a little with my sub. In the end I spent nearly a day trying to get it integrated in a better way, and frankly I've given up on it ever working well on music.

Don't get me wrong, on films it's awesome, but using the high level outputs (it's a REL Q100) and running it in parallel with my kabers, it simply doesn't integrate, having obvious timing issues and a lack of control. I guess that the constrast with my much tighter kabers doesn't help.

Frankly, it's all a result of listening to Tones system. His clearly doesn't go as deep as mine using a sub, but frankly sounded miles better integrated, hence my interest.

So, no more sub with music for me...

 

I've come to much the same conclusions ......mines only in the audio loop [low level] for films.

 

My old sub (a Paradigm PDR10) was nowhere near the best sub, even for films, but I gave up within 3 hours of trying to integrate it with my then-MS25i main speakers - it was slow and slobby - even on VERY low level...

My Rega Elas don't go deep enough in the room they're in now - now if I could be guaranteed that something like a Rega Vulcan could work - I might consider it - but I bet it wouldn't.

That said, Henryt's system, using MJA subs and Verity Audio speakers, sounds pretty damn well integrated - so it CAN be done if luck holds out.

 

I've managed to integrate mine pretty well, but it has taken a hell a lot of fiddling around and repositioning etc.

Mr Sukebe, have you tried inverting the phase? that sometimes works quite well?

Cheers, Robbo

 

Mike, we got the little Pro 50 to disappear into the music well on Timpy's Kabors, not too much farting about either, but the are very fast and musical. WM

 

Tone,

Is that the 50 model?
How does it stand up in movies? Could be an interesting option, as I know that it'll be dead easy to sell the Q100.

 

Very nice sub Mike, not gut wrenchingly powerful, but damn good with movies too, also consider the next model up only £50 more like Henry has, I liked em, a touch OTT at home but excellent gear at a fair price Mike. Tone

 

I'll second that

 

When we listen to subs we're actually hearing the combination of subs and room. One cannot be divorced from the other. Often a slow sub is that way because it's exciting room resonances and not because of the sub itself.

Mr. S, could you say a little about the room and the positions in the room that you have tried for your sub? Also, so we can know what is trying to be integrated, can you tell us the crossover frequencies and slopes that you've tried?

 

The reason you could sell the Q100 easily is that it's a blo*ody good sub and, as they aren't made anymore, there aren't that many around.

Honestly, I'd take the Q100 any day over the tiny boxes with the 8" drivers, especially if you want to use it for home cinema.

The shortcomings of the little boxes/driver were brought home to me last night when I borrowed an M&K K9 sub from a dealer to try out (just for experimentation). It's not a cheap sub at £595 but it's a dinky little thing with an 8" driver and a 75 watt amp.

Anway, it wasn't too bad at all with music but with movies, as soon as you pushed it, it just couldn't cope. Okay so I'm talking about bass heavy movies like Lord of the Rings and Titan AE (DTS) and playing at only a few notches below reference levels but the thing was just totally out of it's depth and distortion levels were high.

I'd stick with the Q100 and work on the integration some more - if you do really have to change it then look at the REL ST range rather then the Q's.

Matt.

 

Steve, you thoughts on this would be helpful here sir
We had Timps sub, x/crossed at 35-40 hz, 180 phased, slipped in the equation very well virtualy seemless, and he hates subs
Room was arkward small and full of stuff, but it puched hard and fast and was very musical, I don't think you get many multi purpose subs below £500 though that really do it, most of the older REL's I've listen too don't do music, but do movies very well. WM

 

Mmm , not too sure about the price Wm .
If Henry is still using the ref1,s , then they retail at £700 in black , 800 in veneer (although henry had a show discount). Isn,t the 50 about £300 .

 

Richard the next one up from the PRO 50 is another £50 has the display on it like the ref 1, but's it's £350, bigger amp than the pro 50, I had one for while the guys lent us from MJ acoustic. WM

 

I have gound that the best position for my is in the corner of the room, hard up against the wall. I use it in phase with the a crossover frequency of 43 hz and go gentle with the gain. It hasnt got the ultimate slam or grunt, but I prefer subtle, lithe bass, and I have pretty much achieved what I wanted now.

Cheers, Robbo.

 

Re: Re: Integrating a sub

My room is slightly weird shaped. To try to paint a picture. Imagine that the main speakers are on the north wall, shooting southerly.
The west wall is approx 1m to the left of the left speaker and is perpendicular. The southerly wall is at a low angle, and is approx 6m away, it curves around to meet the north wall, approx 9m away. Overall, this is a slightly bright room (not enough curtains as yet), and has very little additional bass emphasis, certainly a massive improvement on my last place.
I've tried the sub on both the west wall (shooting east) and the north wall (shooting south towards the listening position).
As for the setup, I've tried a variety of things, none of which give a good overall solution.
I think that all it comes down to is that my speakers are very fast, with little overhang, whilst the sub just can't keep pace on music. So at the moment, I'm running without a sub, and frankly I find it far more cohesive and enjoyable to listen to.

 

Re: Re: Re: Integrating a sub

I agree with Robbo above. The best starting point for a subwoofer system is in a corner. This position couples the sub to the room most effectively. Your North-West corner would be my start point.

In fact, I designed the Little Awesome Double sub for those customers that want to use two subs but find that the best position is to put both of them in the same corner.

Having placed the sub or subs in the corner, the next job (if necessary) would be to reduce any dominating room resonances. This should be done with room treatments to absorb energy at resonant frequencies. You will find instructions for building these quite inexpensively, on the web.

If you're really obsessed with clean, strong bass, the final step would be to use parametric equalization to reduce any further room peaks (from the perspective of a particular listening position). You haven't said what frequency your sub goes up to or what the slope is but, presumably, the problem is in that range. I'm not using equalization myself at this time.

Of course, if you're enjoying listening to music without the sub, then that's the way for you to go.

Your comment that it's a slightly bright room reminds me of my experiences when I launched the Seventh Veil system at the High End Show in Frankfurt this year. The rooms were small, square and concrete walled. Sounded awful, like a large bathroom. All I could come up with was to arrive on the first morning of the show with a duvet and a couple of blankets. I just tacked these on to the walls. They looked horrible but did tidy up the sound. The amazing thing was that only one person even noticed.

... and (he says, anticipating a possible attack from a well known Arthurian wizard), I would not criticize or rule out alternative approaches to achieving good in-room bass. There's much out there that I haven't yet tried. I think one of our first maxims should be "If it sounds good it is good".

 

I agree with Steve, the sub sounds slow because of room ressonances, it is a good sub, I wouldn't trade it for the new smaller subs either...

I use two subs with active xover, but previously I had ony one Strata III, and used the high level as you do...

Start placing it in the north-west corner, set the xover on the 3db point of your speakers response, adjust level until you start to hear it, then back a notch...

If it sounds slow, start moving it away from the corner, mine are less than 20" from each wall, set the phase switch where it sounds louder, play with level again, as above, if it still shows too much, lower the xover a notch, play with level again...

You will not be happy imediately, hear a couple of days, to get used to it, play with setup again, use CDs with lots of low bass...

Also try the driver facing the wall, or the room, whatever sounds better in your system, good luck... :beer:

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Integrating a sub

Just to clear that one up, the absorbtion required to treat dominant room modes below say 125hz, those that lead to the slow, ploddy bass, would need to be of enormous thickness, or carefully designed and very large corner mounted bass traps. Both options fairly inpractical in the typical UK living room. Subwoofer EQ is however practical, try Behringer.

The question remains, to whom

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Integrating a sub

How about the following multiple choice question?

Person A likes the sound of system X while person B prefers the sound of system Y. Which is the best system?

a) System X - B is a complete dork.
b) Show me the frequency response curves and I'll tell you.
c) System Z is better than X or Y. Have you seen the web site?
d) De gustibus et coloribus non discutandum est ...

:scratch-head: